The Balance Experience
The Balance Experience
Game Day with Karen Lyle
Karen Lyle has an extensive resume within the Ultra Trail Marathon series, not to mention Crossfit Games. Karen, an athlete of many talents, has the ethos of a BEAST! She has the ability to manage the mindset of pain before, during and after races. Join us as we discuss what it takes to be an athlete and how to prepare on Game Day.
Yeah, well um, anyway, I think all...Kaz thanks for joining us. I think it's like, I know this is you know, there's a lot going on for you workwise, recovery wise, and lots of stuff so I really appreciate your time. Jac appreciate your time mate, as well and Nick...
Jac Simmonds :We appreciate you.
Nick Papastamatis :Thank you guys. I was really asking for that. I suppose you know this is...welcome to The Balance Experience.
Jac Simmonds :We've got a name now ay. Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :Yes, it is The Balance Experience and I've...you've had plenty of that.
Karen Lyle :I've had a lot of ah...experiences.
Jac Simmonds :Perfect number one guest. Yeah, exactly.
Nick Papastamatis :So like, when we first met at squat therapy, yes. How long ago was that? That was..
Karen Lyle :Must of been four or five years ago.
Nick Papastamatis :Four years ago. And can you like...what what did we find on but what was the conversation that ended up.
Karen Lyle :Like anyone that comes up to you, how many people do you get this? Ooh I got this niggle.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, just everywhere we go. Yeah.
Karen Lyle :I think I did the same thing. It was at the end of squta therapy. I've got this Achilles thing that won't go away. Like you know, I've had a lot of trouble with it for a long time. Do you think you could have a quick look? Like yeah, easy.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. Easy.
Jac Simmonds :This was 2015 was it?
Nick Papastamatis :Everything was easy back then.
Karen Lyle :That started our journey together.What a wonderful journey it has been.
Nick Papastamatis :It has been quite...quite that.
Jac Simmonds :This would have been in the early days of squat therapy.
Nick Papastamatis :It was the first squat therapy.
Jac Simmonds :First squat therapy?
Nick Papastamatis :It was a highly advanced, highly advanced, back then.
Karen Lyle :It was a lot ot take in.
Nick Papastamatis :That's right.
Jac Simmonds :It's a bit more simplified now.
Nick Papastamatis :These days, squat therapy is a bit different. But anyway, we're not talking about that. It's more..what...from there like you came in and I think we were talking about core weren't we? Like trying to sort your core out.
Karen Lyle :A lot of core, came in achilles, knee, now are we making sense?
Nick Papastamatis :Yes.
Karen Lyle :And obviously I had a race coming up where I was trying to get you to bandaid me to the spotlight. Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :I can't remember which race that was. That was the 50 km, Yeah?
Karen Lyle :That was a race called GNW. Great North Walk 100km, it was in september actually...actually was probably four years ago. Right about now.
Nick Papastamatis :Oh, wow. Oh shit.
Jac Simmonds :And how far out were you from that race at that time?
Karen Lyle :Like three months?
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, okay. And at this time it was Achilles and knee?
Karen Lyle :Yes.
Jac Simmonds :That was the problem. Okay. Right. And you got started working together from that point?
Karen Lyle :From that point. Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :Pretty much. I think it started off with me trying to solve it. Yeah. You know, trying to figure out shit like it's core into like oblique into hip into hammy. And I actually like because I think we we started to get closer to the race and then realized shit, I think we need to manage the pain.
Karen Lyle :And that was more important to me as well. I mean, I'm old enough, you know, to understand that, you know, I have some kind of self responsibility. You know, I'm the one that is I know, I toeing the line. I'm the one that can you know, feel the pain. I have to you know, appreciate that. Okay. I'm seeing you for potentially not a complete resolution. Yeah. To get me to continue through my training, which was important, because there's like, a lot of training load. Yeah. To manage that. And to get me to the start. Yeah. And I think from the get go, we had that understanding with each other. Yeah, which is probably, you know, the biggest reason that, you know, we, I kept working with you.
Jac Simmonds :Sometimes that's a Yeah, that's a tough realization for patient to come too.
Karen Lyle :That's correct. And it comes down to the person you know, I, I'm not saying that, you know, I appreciate that, you know, for those that don't know, I do a lot of ultra marathons. Very long distances. So ultra marathon means anything over 42 Km's. So a lot of my runs are 100 km up. Now that is a lot of wear and tear on the body and I appreciate that.
Nick Papastamatis :Can you drive? Can you drive throughout that race? Is that a car race?
Karen Lyle :There is no vehicle.
Jac Simmonds :After driving 100km's up the central coast? Yeah.
Karen Lyle :So the ones that I do are in the bush, which means there is a lot of elevation, there is lot of rough terrain. You know, it's not just running, it's, you know, scrambling, it's climbing, it's falling sometimes, you know, it's all part of it.
Nick Papastamatis :That would keep it interesting, though at the same time.
Karen Lyle :Keeps it very interesting. Yeah. It's beautiful out there. I'm not a massive fan of running on the road. But you know, I love running through the bush and running through trails. It's Yeah, you know, my little form of meditation. Which is one of the reasons that I do it. But I also appreciate that during these distances isn't for everyone, and I appreciate the damage, you know, that I may, you know, do to my body along the way. I'm not oblivious to that.
Jac Simmonds :It's sort of part and parcel with those like ultra endurance events, I guess, managing it. Yeah, especially coming into the events where you are pushing to get those massive distances in training, like, shits gonna break down eventually. And it's how you manage it, I guess.
Karen Lyle :You need to try and manage it the best you can. And people have to accept that level of responsibility on themselves I think.
Nick Papastamatis :That's from a patient's point of view. But then also, I think one thing you alluded to before was one of the reasons why you kept working and cooperating with me was because there was an understanding between, right we're going to manage pain, and the solution is not that simple. And it's a long term solution, which does not correlate to your training season right now.
Karen Lyle :Correct. And you were very upfront with that. Yeah, you definitely, you know, I feel as a practitioner, let me know where I stood.
Nick Papastamatis :I showed you the point A.
Karen Lyle :Yeah, you told me the potential outcomes, you know, you do this, this could happen, this could happen. And I had that information. I took it on board, and it was up to me personally to work out what I wanted to do from there. You know for a lot of people that might have been okay this race maybe it's not for me right now, you know we'll do something a bit later, for me. I was like no no this race is for me right now. We can do it.
Jac Simmonds :In that case as well what will happen a lot of the time will be like people will just like practitioner hop like always trying to find that fix before the race or before the event or before finals or whatever, when it's it's not there, right? Like not not there at that specific time when you're like running like I don't know how, like your distances must get crazy leading into these races. Very hard to make adaptive changes in that black when it's when it's getting up to those high high volumes. So yeah.
Karen Lyle :And that really is where I guess most you know, the problems are gonna occur is in your training. So you know, the race is just the icing on the cake, you know, all the hard work that's done in the training, in the lead up. Yeah, and I think anyone who, you know, does any kind of event doesn't have to be running well aware of that. Yeah, on the day that's just I feel like that's the stuff you need to enjoy it because all the hard works done. All the getting up at crazy hours was you know, all the, you know, for sure, just mentally exhausting days that you have the physical exhausting days, you know? That's Yeah, the day is just for you to go. Yep, let's do it
Nick Papastamatis :Let's do it.
Karen Lyle :Let's have some fun with this.
Jac Simmonds :How many ultras have you done?
Karen Lyle :Well, I'll let you know that I've done lots and lots of I guess some of the smaller ones. In terms of the biggest ones I guess my most notable ones are 100 km events in the Blue Mountains, 100km events through yeah GNW which I spoke about before Great North Walk trail. 100km events in New Zealand and then I guess the biggest one that I've done was yes, this time last year. And that was 175km event. Which was a long way biggest and longest to date.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. And I suppose you know. I do want to I do want to, although although we've we've sort of moved on to what your what you've done in terms of running. I do want to at some point talk about maybe now's the time to talk about how we've undulated between because we, although we've established that we need to find a solution at some point. It's interesting from a patient motivation point of view, how you've gone from prep for a race, that becomes intense and very painful. Then you reach the pinnacle, which is the event and then after that motivation, gone until, because I don't see you after a race unless there's a post race injury and even then, we actually...
Karen Lyle :I'm very rarely injured post race.
Nick Papastamatis :If there was...no you were, you were and you were like, and you were like, I don't want to see you and it's interesting.
Karen Lyle :That's because we spend so much time together.
Nick Papastamatis :Oh look I don't blame ya.
Jac Simmonds :I get sick of him too sometimes, yes.
Nick Papastamatis :But it's more like, and it's not like I'm not pointing the finger. It's more like it's more. It's interesting to watch from a practitioner patient pain journey point of view of it gets very hard to like if there isn't as if there is a potential path for a solution. And that is a long term one. And then you before the race, your motivation spikes because you've got like a deadline. That becomes pain management. We know the solution sitting in the background. We're like, okay, we'll prepare for that in the offseason. You then get to the race, finish it, and you're like, right, I need to have a break. And at that point, it's almost like everything restarts, but then the motivation to find to then continue with treatment, rehab...
Karen Lyle :And I think the big problem for me in that scenario, is one race just lead into another. Yeah, so there wasn't too much of an offseason. So it went from managing pain, you know, having the race, have a break does have a little downtime. Yes. Then start that process again and you know, if I look back at that yes, that's probably not the ideal way of doing it, learnt a lot along the way. I guess we could say.
Jac Simmonds :Were you doing a couple per year at that stage or...
Karen Lyle :Yeah, look, I think I was silly with how and he was doing per year. I generally only do one really big one a year. But, you know, it's the training. You know, you're doing a lot of training and it's a lot of you know, wear and tear anybody and I guess if you've got an injury that you've never really, you know, gotten over, then that's just gonna always be there.
Jac Simmonds :How many of these ultras do you reckon you did with an injury? All of them?
Karen Lyle :All of them bar one, okay. But I had an injury leading into it, but it wasn't. It was that was the shin, the shin splints, shin splints? Yeah, it was excruciating.
Jac Simmonds :Oh yeah they're the worst.
Karen Lyle :What is this pain it feels like, you know, my leg is gonna snap off.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, cause you had shin splints, and then that...no you had achilles?
Karen Lyle :With some treatment, it went and I was like, this is great. I was like, yeah, that was that was a good race, besides the fact that it poured with rain like you've never seen. Yeah, the entire race. But side note.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, that wasn't the 175 Km?
Karen Lyle :No.
Nick Papastamatis :That was before that. That was before that, one race before the 175 Km.
Karen Lyle :Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. It's, it's, it's been it's been an interesting because it's not like you've had, excuse me, it's not like you've had different issues in the prep. It's almost like you have this one consistent bastard of a niggle, that just gets worse and worse and worse and worse. Until...
Karen Lyle :It has a knock on effect.
Nick Papastamatis :.... because you're training loads are so high as you as you go towards your peak of your program. And then like literally, as a deload, we've got like, two weeks to play with?
Karen Lyle :Yeah, pretty much.
Jac Simmonds :And then you're back into another prep. Yeah.
Karen Lyle :Yeah. And then you have...
Nick Papastamatis :Well then it's the race.
Jac Simmonds :For, for example, for the 175 km race, what did your like weekly running loads get to before that?
Karen Lyle :I have a very, very smart, knowledgeable, sensible coach, um, who worked with me closely. You know, he knew all about my niggles and about how to manage my pain. Yeah. I never ran any more than 100 Km's a week.
Nick Papastamatis :Oh, yeah, that's nothing.
Karen Lyle :For me...In comparison marathons often around like...runners are crazy.
Nick Papastamatis :80 to 120 kms a week for sure.
Jac Simmonds :I mean, I'm just thinking, like some people who I've got who are doing city to surf, which is like, what 14kms, they're running like 40-60kms per week.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, it's completely unneccessary.
Karen Lyle :At my peak I was running 100 Km, so I know. So for me, he understands he knows my body, you know, any more than that, and I just would have, you know, completely broken down and then even towards the end of it. You know, I really was struggling a little bit with my shin splint, and my Achilles and we just packed it all together. I just said on the bike. Yeah. And we just tried to manage it that way. So, you know, I knew that I was going to get to that start line regardless of what was happening to my body, again, personal choice, you don't recommend that for everyone. I mean, I would probably tell someone else. That's silly. You know, but we're all adults. Yeah. Make your own choices.
Nick Papastamatis :Yes sure that there is absolutely no sport at the elite level, you know, and I would call that an elite level sport. Like, I know people can walk it. I know people can take their time, but you weren't walking.
Karen Lyle :No.
Nick Papastamatis :No. So I would call that an elite level sport. You've competed other elite level, sort of, you know, CrossFit, right. Yeah, you've completed the CrossFit Games.
Karen Lyle :I was lucky enough to be on a team that went to the games back in 2012.
Nick Papastamatis :So your high performing athlete Really? Yeah, you might not consider that and yeah, whatever. Whatever you want to call yourself, right, but at the end of the day, it's not like, it's not like you were going into that race, considering whether you're gonna finish or not, it was more how fast could I do it? Was that the mentality?
Karen Lyle :The sum? Yes. For the more experience you have, I feel with these type of things... I think there's so so many unknown elements. You know, it's a long time you're out this so many things can happen. You know, I've seen you know, race leaders fall and on nothing and break an arm. Out...gone... you know, you don't anticipate that type of stuff. Yeah, anything can happen. So, for me, the more hundreds I did, yes, the more competitive I probably got. That 175 km race that for me was such an element of you know, there was so much uncertainty. There was so many unknowns. I just want to finish that fucker. Yeah, I'll be honest, I didn't really care about the time for that. Yeah. Um, I wanted to put in my best performance. Yes. I had a little bit of a goal of wanting...what I wanted to get to the 100km mark at, but anything over that 100km for me was completely unknown. Yeah. And it was it was certainly became evident when I was out there. But yeah, my goal was just crossing that, you know, you run along the beach. How's that they make you run along the sand to finish? That's awful.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah that's nice motherfuckers.
Karen Lyle :Yeah, and there's everyone's watching so you got to break into a run, you really got to...
Jac Simmonds :It must have been a massive sense of accomplishment after that I'd imagine...
Karen Lyle :I never cry. Yeah rice I broke down, I sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. Yeah, yeah, even now a little tear.
Nick Papastamatis :Wow. Wow, it's pretty cool. And I mean, you know, when you when you relive that satisfaction or that sense of relief that you've just accomplished something that...
Karen Lyle :Hmm relief? Yes, It's like um... I guess the biggest thing is I was like, I'm not normally nervous for these events. I was nervous. Yeah. Like weeks before. Yeah. And I couldn't put my finger on it. I'm like you know, it's not like a I'm sure a few people listening can probably relate to CrossFit events and you know, it's like three two one go. Yes. You know, you're out there. Yeah, it's quick. It's you know, get it done. These events be grip starting. Yeah, it's like go, and then everyone just very slowly takes off. Like it's very lackluster.
Nick Papastamatis :Like mosey on over to the finish line.
Jac Simmonds :With ultra endurance the main thing I think about is like, because I've only ever done sports, which are like anaerobic like, quick stop start stuff. Yes. I could only imagine like, what your thoughts are at like, 80, 90, 100km. Like, what's going through your head at that stage?
Karen Lyle :Minimal.
Jac Simmonds :Do you just try and have white noise?
Karen Lyle :Yeah, it just ends up being that way. You're with yourself for such a long time.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. I think thats sports for me hey.
Jac Simmonds :You'd have quite a bit of like, internal motivation. To keep going.
Karen Lyle :You definitely do. I don't talk to myself a lot though. Like, I do remember, I look at things. There's a lot to see and you know I remember passing this horse and going "Oh horsey".
Nick Papastamatis :Aka ala, Homer Simpson.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :Well, that's so good.
Karen Lyle :Yeah, the less going on up there the better.
Nick Papastamatis :isn't it? Isn't it funny how everyone's brain works so differently?
Karen Lyle :Yeah, I know.
Jac Simmonds :Can you listen to music in these events?
Karen Lyle :Some yes. Oh, yeah. I very rarely do. Yeah. I don't know why a lot of a lot of people do. I don't know. I don't feel like I need to. I think once I did, I pop some music in. It's like, Okay. Yeah, you know, a little bit to bring me home. Yeah. I didn't really need it.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, cool. It's funny because not that I've done much endurance at all. I think the longest run I've ever done. And this is I'm not proud of this. The longest run is a city2surf that I've ever done. 14 kilometers. Is that not bad?
Jac Simmonds :That's pretty good. Good. I play like I mean, yeah, I think probably the longest sounds like 20 kms. Okay. Yeah.
Karen Lyle :Everyone's like different. It's like people say to me, you know, that's crazy, you know? Yeah, it's that the some people running 5kms might be crazy. It's all relative you know, they've never done anything like that before 5kms to them is like 175 Km's. Yeah, everyone is, you know, completely you...
Nick Papastamatis :You would have experienced that as a coach as well. I mean, coaching CrossFit.
Karen Lyle :Definitely. Yep. You know, and...
Nick Papastamatis :Fran, Fran is one thing to one person, and then it's a 20 minute accomplishment for another.
Jac Simmonds :That's an endurance event for me. Yeah, sure.
Karen Lyle :Yeah. And it's hard as humans, you know, we naturally compare ourselves to the person next to us. But yeah, you know, in this type of stuff, it's really important not to, you know, everyone has, you know, their own, you know, personal goal, they're own, you know, journey and that's why this stuff for me I try to compare that last race I want to do was cross the finish line. I think I was like, saying before how I was so nervous I couldn't work out why I was nervous. But then it you know dawned upon me. I was nervous because I put in so much training. I spent so much time with you. Yeah, I was driving out to Castle Hill. I was driving out to Bondi. I live in Manly.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. And that was just that was just to see me. Yeah. And that's that's only one part of the journey.
Karen Lyle :Correct. You know I was nervous being stabbed with needles.
Nick Papastamatis :Oh, yeah. I was like, that's a three hour ordeal.
Jac Simmonds :Massive commitment.
Karen Lyle :Time investment, money, investment, everything. And I was nervous I wasn't going across the line. Yeah. Like, I was just felt like, you know, not that I was gonna let everyone else down, but I definitely didn't want to let myself down. Um, and that's why I was nervous. Whereas I feel if I did it again, those nerves would be a little bit different. I'd be like, okay, now I want to see if I can beat it. Yes.
Nick Papastamatis :I feel like there's a big difference between people that are like for example, you mentioned the City2Surf earlier of people doing 50, 60 km weeks to try and prepare for the City2Surf. I often wonder is there... there would be a big difference and you know Kaz like this is probably a question for you right? Would you find that there's a difference between the mileage that someone trying to build their fitness to finish the City2Surf as opposed to finishing the City2Surf under a certain time cap?
Karen Lyle :Yes!
Nick Papastamatis :What would be the difference there would you say that someone building their fitness would have to put in more miles?
Karen Lyle :No.
Nick Papastamatis :Okay yeah, cool.
Karen Lyle :Opposite.
Nick Papastamatis :The opposite
Karen Lyle :They're...You know, if you're new you know to running like anything any sport you know, your body's got to adjust your joints have to adjust you know, all that type of thing. I have. Actually the Oxfam 100km walk was just on so charity event. Right event we've done that before. And you know, a lot of people walk out because they're raising money for charity which is perfect and you get a few teams who you know, want to run it but it is a charity event at the end of the day, and I know so many people who don't train who don't do their hiking for that, yeah, they think they go, or they see that they see these people do it, you know, and they're like, unfit. I can do it. They get in busted knee 40 Kms. Yeah. And I never had a knee before. But like, like, I don't understand. I was like its above your threshold. You haven't spent time on your feet. You know, if you did spend the time on your feet, you probably would have crushed it. Yeah. But you know, you can't just assume that you great in the gym. And you know, you can deadlift this and squat that and that's impressive. And you can run around the block really, really fast. That that's going to transfer over to moving your body 100 kilometers through terrain.
Nick Papastamatis :And they say that the only way that you can really prepare and build strength for running is by running Yes. There is no comparison. Yeah. Because Because the the force transmission through the calf is just so great when you're running. Yeah, there's no amount of strength that you could physically do. Yeah, that equates to it.
Jac Simmonds :I reckon people just self write their programs as well, most of the time for these things like they just assume, and that's why it's so important to like you just get a coach, like it'll save you so much hassle.
Karen Lyle :I don't know why you wouldn't.
Jac Simmonds :Like 90% of the time when we see people who come in with like shin splints, or, like whatever, like some sort of overuse injury from running it's just because they had to shit program leading into, like serious or no program most of them no program, or just like going for a run with no plan.
Nick Papastamatis :Also, I think that the toughest and most frustrating patients that I deal with personally are patients that don't have a coach and they have no prep, or they write their own program. Oh, my, it's like, well, what do you want me to do? Like, I'm gonna solve this and then you're gonna fuck it up again. So it's like, Whoa, just get a coach and spend that money on them. Not me.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. Like the running the like the long distance running is only just one part of your prep. It's like strength work. It's speed work. There's a lot of elements to it.
Karen Lyle :It's not like I'm just running long runs every week.
Jac Simmonds :What would a week look like for you like saying in the middle of your prep?
Karen Lyle :Yep. So I would be like a Monday I would generally do strength training, Tuesdays might be hills and interval work. Yeah. Wednesday's, like a, you know, 40 Minute just kind of easy run, Thursdays maybe some more intervals. And then Friday, so, Friday again and like an easy 40 min run, you know, okay. And then the longest stuff, you know, on the weekend, it'll be a rest day in there somewhere as well. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely don't go seven days straight. But yeah, it's not all long running.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. Oh, there's heaps of elements to it. So which I think people like assume, or novices like doing their first half marathon or marathon. And like a lot of them download those apps on the on their phones.
Nick Papastamatis :Oh like the couch to 5kms.
Jac Simmonds :It's just like, again, it's one element like you need to be strong. You need to have strength endurance. You need to be able to like do the speed stuff as well like having the anaerobic capacity.
Karen Lyle :All those elements involved. Yeah. It's a and running is one of those hard things as well, because something really everyone can do and probably has done at some point in their life, right? So someone says, I want to sign up for the City2Surf. Oh, I better make my first run of 10 km run and I haven't run in six years. Yeah, see it happened. You guys must see that happen all the time. Then they would come in with calf, like, you know, Achilles.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah those Achilles injuries. So I mean, like, I mean, we we've we've got a pretty good idea as to like, what sort of training you've done. You've got you've got your eyes set on a particular goal, haven't you?
Karen Lyle :There is one race I would love to do. It's actually on right now. It's called UTMB - Ultra Trail Mont Blanc. So over in Europe, France, Italy. There's a lot of different races that you can do. And it just, the scenery looks just amazing. You're running through, you know, the Alps. This stunning stuff.
Nick Papastamatis :That's pretty cool.
Jac Simmonds :So yeah, maybe we should maybe go into like what your last couple months have been like Kaz and give people an idea of, I guess where we're at at the moment and what's going on?
Karen Lyle :So the last couple of months, have essentially seen me going from all this time last year running 175 Kms to a few months ago, dragging myself up my driveway on my bum, because I couldn't walk and I've been in a boot in a cast and on crutches. So, yeah, for those who don't know, I had an Achilles reconstruction. Basically, yeah, just long time coming, I just needed to get this problem solved if I was to ever want to go and keep doing these events long term. So its a long recovery um, I guess I got told that many times before - 12 month recovery. A lot of people say me out of the boot now they're like, you're gonna go for a run. I was like, noooo I've got about another nine months before I think I'm even allowed to think about that yet. Yeah. We haven't even talked about that. No, I mean, I need to walk without pain is my first step so very different for me from this time last year. Yeah. Now my goal is walking pain free.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. Cause you've...it wasn't the Achilles issue that you had originally. This is a new Achilles issue.
Karen Lyle :Correct.
Nick Papastamatis :And where did this come from? Because we were preparing you for the last race, with no it was with Achilles pain, wasn't it?
Karen Lyle :Yes.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. We went for shin splints to hip to achilles.
Jac Simmonds :It was in the other achilles for the last race wasn't it.
Karen Lyle :When I first came to see Nick, everyone's gonna be like, wow, what is this girl doing running all these races?
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, have a break, man. Have you ever heard of ice cream? Ice cream?
Jac Simmonds :I think everybody I think everyone has an assumption that ultra endurance athletes are a different breed.
Nick Papastamatis :I think we can all agree Yeah.
Karen Lyle :I first presented with Achilles pain in my right Achilles. We did fix that.
Nick Papastamatis :Did we?
Karen Lyle :We fixed it.
Nick Papastamatis :Okay, good. Yep
Karen Lyle :It's not presented since..
Nick Papastamatis :Well, do you remember what we did to fix that? I think it was a combination of things and mostly luck.
Jac Simmonds :Because that was not that long ago you still had right Achilles pain?
Karen Lyle :No, I haven't had right pain for well over a year. For about 18 months. But then I did develop a gnarly shin splint. Yeah, on my right side so whether that was linked to the Achilles or not and then just in the in the left one to start to give and then that ended up being way worse than the right ever was. I remember used to say to myself, why can't my left Achilles just be like, my right.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. How did you deal with that? Like when it... like, obviously, you've got this right Achilles issue, which has been there for a while. Yeah. How like, what was going through your head when this this left one started to get us?
Karen Lyle :Well, it started to get really bad in the training for GNW. But I mean, most of my big training was done. I was heartbroken. Yeah, that it was happening again. And that it felt worse. I don't know if I ever told you that, that it felt a lot worse. But I..than the right one.
Nick Papastamatis :I think there was a lot of self talk that you were trying to keep away from your front of mind.
Karen Lyle :Correct.
Nick Papastamatis :And I definitely don't think was about me. I think it was definitely about you.
Karen Lyle :Yeah. But I knew it was really bad the night before. And when I went to walk from the night before the race, I walked from the lounge room to the bedroom and I was like, I can hardly walk. And I got to the start line. And normally I'm pretty, you know, cheery, bubbly person, for anyone that knows me and my husband knew something was wrong. And yes, it was an emotional time that's going and the first 50 km were excruciating. Ben saw me there's not too many checkpoints in this race. The first checkpoint was about 28 Km's in and he saw me I was very quiet which is very unlike me. He said to everyone she's gonna pull out the next checkpoint. I didn't say that to him. Got to the next checkpoint. It's all business. Yeah, I was like, just strap me on, just do what we need to do, change my pack, you know, get all that stuff together. I'm going out. And then I think you could probably explain what happened better than I can. But then from the 50 to the 80 km mark. Okay. Things just disappeared. Yeah. Pain went and I was back Yeah, like, this is excellent. And I got to the 80 km mark happy as Larry and I was back.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, it's not an uncommon, like scenario in these endurance events, like, even just like with like, setting aside pathology. Like, obviously you had like an Achilles problem, but just like the actual pain of the event in general, like, yeah, people go through sort of waves, it's like hitting the wall, right? Like, Yeah.
Karen Lyle :Don't get me wrong that first 50kms was the most excruciating thing I've ever done in my life. Oh, yeah. I had left foot Achilles pain, right foot shin splints. So it didn't matter which foot I put down. It was pain, pain, pain, pain, pain.
Nick Papastamatis :Like ping pong.
Jac Simmonds :I don't know how you got through that. Yeah, like what was your self talk in your head when you were at like km 45?
Karen Lyle :Make it to the checkpoint.
Jac Simmonds :Was it? Just like small little increments to get through it.
Karen Lyle :Small goals, like if I make it to this checkpoint and if I can get out of these checkpoint yeah because this race very remote, the course isn't marked, once you leave that checkpoint and you're out in the bush only one way back there is no getting out. Yeah, yeah, so I was like, well, I get from my leave that checkpoint I have to make it to 80 Kms, once I make it to 80 Kms, well, I'm nearly at 100 right. Once I get to 100 this was like what was going through my mind, once I get to 100 then I have you can get a pacer and I had some girlfriends who had...
Nick Papastamatis :A pacer is someone that runs next to you.
Karen Lyle :Yes. For some events over 100 Km's they do that for safety reasons. You can choose to have one or not.
Jac Simmonds :What a shit job.
Karen Lyle :Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :Listen man, you just got to keep them alive. But I've...No, shut the fuck up.
Jac Simmonds :His name wasn't Forrest Gump was it?
Nick Papastamatis :That is a blistering pace.
Karen Lyle :But once I got there I knew I'd pick them up, I'd pick her up, Lauren and then she talked me through to the next aid station and then my next pacer would talk me through to the next one and I wasn't gonna let them down because they had also..
Nick Papastamatis :They've come with the journey. Amazing.
Karen Lyle :Yeah they not slept through the whole night with me that night you know they're out there, I couldn't let them down either.
Jac Simmonds :Was it one instant where the pain went?
Karen Lyle :I was running along the road. I can remember out of the checkpoint and I was like pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, pain, and...
Jac Simmonds :Seeing the monkey symbols again.
Karen Lyle :I told you not much goes through my head when I run, remember the "Oh horsey" or pain, pain, pain, pain, pain.
Nick Papastamatis :You know what, that's probably why you're able to do what you're doing. Anyway. Sorry.
Karen Lyle :And I just remember going up this hill and I saw this poor bugger sitting down who I knew. I was like, what's wrong and he just looked... his poor face. He couldn't go. He said, I can't go on any further. And then, yeah, I kind of let him go and then carried on. And then after that, I just, I just went well, and then it's fascinating. He actually did finish the race in the end. So I was I was happy.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah there's certainly a David Goggins talks a lot about going through these I can't remember what he called them, but these episodes or waves of just being in a big black hole in your mind, and then all of a sudden, you come out of that almost euphoric. And so it's almost like you undulating between big mental battle, and it's almost like your brain recognizes, oh, okay, well, we're not gonna be we're not going to stop. So we're going to have to find a way out of this and it's almost like a spike in adrenaline. Lots of pain and inhibition I'd be fascinated to see what actually happens in the brain.
Jac Simmonds :I'm sure there is a lot of physiological stuff going on in this. I just reckon, like, Goggins talks about this as well, but like, just the fact that you training for these ultra events you'd like build, he calls them mental calluses, right? Like, I love that term. And it's so true, like, yeah, just the ability to walk through these things.
Nick Papastamatis :And it's almost like just because really, it comes down to your interpretation of that pain. Undoubtedly, those pain signals are real, there are pain fibers. At the same time, it really comes down to how you...what your relationship with pain is, and how you then manage it. So question for you. What is your relationship with pain?
Karen Lyle :With pain? Hmm, unfortunately, I feel like it's something that I've started to accept. I don't really want that to be the case. Pain is obviously your body telling you something is not right. Yeah. And that you should listen to that. But I think it's important as well. Listen to it, but don't give into it. Yeah, and I don't mean by being a little silly sometimes and running through pain and you know, training through pain and all that type of stuff. I mean, that pain, you know, shouldn't and I know for a lot of people unfortunately might but shouldn't control and rule your life. Yes. You know, and I think that happens a lot. You know, you have to work out how you're going to manage, deal, and keep doing the things you like doing. Yep. You know, yes, I'm in pain at the moment 24/7, but there's still things I can do. Sure. Yeah, there are. I'm not gonna just you know, slump on the lounge. Exactly. You know, I can, you know, get a real jacked upper body.
Nick Papastamatis :I definitely I definitely feel there are three there are three different people right. There are the people that are dictated by their pain. Yes, there are people that ignore the pain, and then there are people that know how to deal with it. Yeah. And so, I mean, you know, inside a CrossFit gym, I mean, I'm not sure I think you've had a really good experience where you found some sort of balance. I mean, right now you're postsurgical you're limited in what you're able to do, but what are you doing? You're still doing endurance stuff?
Karen Lyle :Yeh, I mean, there's lots of things you can do kneeling on a bench. Yep. You can get really creative and I have to admit, I've had a bit of fun like getting creative with workouts that I can do. Yeah. You know, my kneeling wall balls are very popular.
Nick Papastamatis :Kneeling wall balls? Oh, wow. Just catch the ball into hip hinge and then back up.
Karen Lyle :Yep, yep. Throw it out.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, not to a 10ft target but.
Nick Papastamatis :I'll keep that in mind, actually, for people that have knee pain. Yeah, that's a great idea. Excellent. I'm stealing it. Yeah.
Karen Lyle :There are loads of things you can do. You've just got to get creative with it and yeah, might be you know, you I'd have to do the same things, you know, a few times, but it's for me anyway, personally, it's better than not doing anything at all. Yeah. Well, I enjoy training...period.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, you know, you probably feel great after those sessions as well. And especially like week by week now, like your week 15 now post surgery, like, I mean, now we're at a point where you can like it's gonna be, you're gonna be able to start doing more and more like, the progressions are going to be more and more over the next month or two, right, like, so I imagine that it's, it's really good to be able to get through those workouts, you must feel great after doing them still.
Karen Lyle :Look 100% you know, and I've got I know that if I don't train, how I feel. And if I do train how I feel, then, you know, I know that this isn't the case for everyone. But I just genuinely enjoy training. Yeah, I enjoy how it makes me feel. You know, I'm like anyone sometimes you don't feel like doing it. You have a little bit of a lacking motivation. I get it. I don't wake up every day and go, I'm fully motivated today. But you know, and the same goes with the running you I didn't always go can't wait to get up at 3:30 tomorrow morning and you know, drive up to the mountains and go for a run. Yeah, but the feeling that you get when you there and after it, it's just amazing. Yeah, it's sometimes you just go to.
Jac Simmonds :I suppose there's some similarities between like prepping for a race and rehabbing an Achilles as well. Like there's an end goal in mind and you've got daily things you need to check off and like it's obviously regressed from what you're....what you're used to. But I guess it's relatable in a way as well, have you found that or?
Karen Lyle :It will I'm in it for the long run.
Nick Papastamatis :Long run, the long run. That is a very good play on words, I like that.
Karen Lyle :Plan that you know, yes do I want to get back to running? Of course, you know, people always coming up to me and saying, Oh, you know, you must be so frustrated. You know, you must be hating this. And then I think about it and I'm like, I'm not actually like...
Jac Simmonds :What does that achieve like?
Karen Lyle :Yeah not that I'm not. I'm sure you have days where you are. Yeah I'm not loving it, that's for sure. But I'm not hating it you know like there's... still doing stuff you know if I spent the whole time you know negative Nancy feeling sorry for myself remember, I guess I put myself in this position. And this was my choice. Definitely. You know, there's no point in me feeling sorry for myself. There's no point in me saying, well, you know, can't do this and can't run may as well not do anything. Yeah, now I've got it just got to be able to do what you can do and do that well, yeah. And then progress. And then, you know, I certainly can't wait for the day I can go for a run again. That's gonna be amazing. And I can't wait for the day I do you know my next ultra marathon. Yeah, you know, that's definitely the goal. But until then, kneeling wall balls.
Nick Papastamatis :Well, I mean, when when it comes to your, and you know, I mean, you you see as a coach, you see people that in and around a lot of different phases of their injuries. You have to then manage them appropriately so they don't hurt hurt themselves in the gym. When you're dealing with someone that is coming into the gym, how do you manage...what do you notice in terms of people's ability to deal with pain?
Karen Lyle :Everyone's different. Okay. You have it's like, exactly how you described it before. There's three people. Yeah. And people who are, you know, consumed by their pain. So, I do see it a lot, you know, people will come in sad face "Oh, you know, this has happened, I can't do I can't do anything" or worse yet, they call me "you know, I've got to stop my membership I've hurt my knee". You know, and that's completely up to them, you know, if they want to do that, that's fine. Yeah. But there's so many things, you know, that has in my mind anyway, you know, far more of a negative effect than their injury, you know, they've given into it.
Nick Papastamatis :The not training is far worse.
Karen Lyle :Their complete, you know, unfortunately, they're letting it now control them. They're giving into it. You know, they're giving into it. You know, and it's very hard sometimes to relay to certain people that, you know, there's still so much you can do. It might not be like always, you know, the super exciting fancy stuff. Yeah, you know, but we can't do that all the time. But you can still move and still things you can do.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, and everyone has niggles right like, if you bring the towel every time you have a niggle, you're never gonna get anything done.
Nick Papastamatis :No, that's right. It is it is most definitely part of strength training, having niggles I think people...people often just want to be pain free. Well, I'm sorry. It's just not gonna happen. And especially if you're going to train with some sort of purpose. And if you're gonna train, like, like, I've been training, my training consistency is where I fall down. I've been super consistent over the past six weeks, albeit minimal. But I've got a fucking injury right now. But and and am I still squatting? Well, yes, but I'm also not being a dickhead. So, at the end of the day, it's um, it really comes down to, like wheere... being consistent over solving everything so that you are perfect. I've got lots of athletes in my experience that have come in and they want to try and get their body perfect. And it's like, there is just no way you can get perfect. Like if we start off asymmetric as it is, and you can't be...you can't make...you can't ever guarantee perfection. So the sooner we have every Joe Blow recognizing that you cannot train with purpose without niggles and pain and injury, then we're you know, we're off to a good start. Just accept it.
Jac Simmonds :Exactly. Yeah. And I don't know if I've like have you ever met an elite athlete that doesn't have a niggle?
Nick Papastamatis :No, they just have to have a longer list, they have a list of niggles.
Jac Simmonds :And they're they're elite athletes because they manage these things well, right? Like they stay, like I said, they stay consistent with their training. Like they didn't have time to take two weeks off completely from everything. Yeah, that's the difference between, I guess how people manage pain right. And I think you've been really good at managing yours. Kaz you've had a really like good mindset around it, which is yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :But then it was also fortunate for Kaz and us really, because pleasure of working with you. But I think it's also if I, you know, if you, you know, to think, in your perspective, how fortunate do you feel finding a practitioner, whether that's me or somebody else, whoever that was, whatever that is, to actually have someone that you can cooperate and trust throughout that process?
Karen Lyle :It's essential. So I think the biggest thing is between a practitioner and you know, a patient is, you know, you need to understand where both parties are coming from, you know, like you, I'm sure you get a lot of people who come in and say, I've got this goal. You say, okay, well, you know, maybe that's not feasible. You present them with, you know, all the possible outcomes. They say, I still want to do it, okay, me. We're like, okay, let's get you there. You know, that's really important, you know, having that relationship and you know, the understanding between each other. Huge. You know, I know I'm not gonna be paying for it at the end of the session. I'm not gonna go home and go, you know what? Still hurting! They didn't doa very good job? No. Did a great job. I can train this week. This is great. I can train next week. This is great. Yeah, I can train the week after I can get to the start line. Yeah, this is what this was the goal that when we spoke, you know, at the start, this is what I wanted to do. Yeah. Goal achieved. Yeah, you know, I remember you and I even had the conversation about what might happen after the race. And I think I said, I'm happy to accept any outcome.
Nick Papastamatis :At which point I shook my head and said, Okay.
Karen Lyle :I remember that. I remember very specifically, and..
Nick Papastamatis :How important and I'm sorry to cut you off. How important was the...How important are those conversations?
Karen Lyle :Hugely important.
Nick Papastamatis :They're more important than the treatment I feel. Yeah, whether I'm right or wrong throughout that, as a practitioner, I feel that the best long term relationships that I've had with athletes, and with patients in general are the ones that can fucking cop the conversations to actually front up and say, This is what I want. This is not where we're, it's not going the way I want it to be going. This is my goal. I accept the...I accept the consequences. A lot of patients just drop off because they feel like I'm not doing, yeah, like, I'm not doing the right thing. It's like well how about you fucking tell me what's going on? Yeah, like, I'm not a mind reader.
Jac Simmonds :It's like external locus of control, right? Yeah. Yeah. Trying to almost like shift blame sometimes perhaps. Yeah. Whereas internally what's going on with them, but like, it's, that's okay. Like, they just drop off and it is what it is.
Nick Papastamatis :Well, it's a shame because they end up...they end up unsolved.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, exactly. And it's just again, like that's what I was talking about before with like practitioner hopping, right? Like it's just...never found that solution.
Nick Papastamatis :Whereas Kaz and I have had have had plenty of these conversations of like, just, you know, me shaking my head. Yeah, you going get on with it. This is my plan, not yours.
Jac Simmonds :Which we spoke about last week actually, on the podcast, like, one of the practitioners roles, I guess, is being a liaison in many ways. Like separate from the manual therapy and the exercise rehab. It's just being in liaison for, like management in general, right, like and someone to, I guess, confide in a little bit and get advice from and education from an all that like, separate from the physio in inverted commas or chiropractic side of it. So, yeah.
Karen Lyle :Well, you wouldn't be doing your job if you didn't, you know, tell me what you thought, you know. And on the other end, you know, what I'm, I guess, wanting from you is, you know, to help get me to, you know, where ever it is in, or someone you know, the start of a race thought of, you know, a man or you know, to be able to demonstrate whatever. You got to have that open communication. You both got to be on board with it.
Jac Simmonds :That takes time to build as well.
Karen Lyle :It takes time to build and not everyone's open to it. Either, you know, I'm sure that there are some practitioners who would be like, okay, I probably don't really want to deal with that, because I think you're really gonna hurt yourself, you know, and I don't really want to be you know, associated with that, and that's fine. That's completely their decision. You know, they, as long as they, you know, yeah express that to you. Yeah. Yes, it's definitely the reason that we work so well together because we speak a lot.
Nick Papastamatis :There's, there's a lot. There's a lot of similarities between the athletes I've had a lot of success with personally. And the ones that I've had success with, is its for me, it comes down to the fact that there is an ongoing conversation. Yeah, there aren't reactive texts at inappropriate times. It is a proper, ongoing conversation, where you are working with someone as opposed to reacting and relying on all the time.
Karen Lyle :Putting out fires, that's not going to work is it?
Nick Papastamatis :No its, just about the amount of athletes I've treated is like there's plenty for me to realize exactly where the success is, and it's in the ongoing conversation. Now, we're coming up, we've just ticked over 50 minutes, which is amazing. And you know, well done, Kaz I've really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you've had a good time so far. I want to ask a deep question.
Karen Lyle :Oh god. Okay.
Nick Papastamatis :I want your help to dive into because I feel like you've gone through a lot of pain. Can you take us back to a time that springs up into your mind and heart straightaway of the worst time you went through? And what did you learn? What were your thoughts?
Karen Lyle :Sporting?
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, well, any pain really.
Karen Lyle :Pain. Worst time I went through. It would have to be now.
Nick Papastamatis :Now.
Karen Lyle :Yeah. Like, if I'm honest, as much as I can stay, you know, and I can stay positive about it. Yeah. This is hard. You know, it's hard not being able to do what you love. You know, for me what I know this is the moment because I'm getting a little bit teary, so...
Nick Papastamatis :It's okay, keep going, you can't hear tears through a microphone. Although I will be taking a photo of this...no no. Keep going, it's okay.
Karen Lyle :For me running his meditation. Yeah, you know, it's my escape. Running, running, running. It's very, like especially through the bush, it's beautiful. Yeah, there are no phones. There's no social media. You know, if I'm running with people, it's people that I choose to run with you know. You know, the sound of birds, the smells, the all of it. You don't get that in everyday life. Our lives are so busy. You know, it's hectic. It's always go, go go. You know that for me is an out from everything. And I'm definitely missing that, like, that's the hardest part is not having that outlet. And as much as I love training in the gym, and I love training and I'll always keep training, I don't get that meditative state, you know from when kneeling wall balls, whereas I can still do it, but yeah, and that's the hard part. And you know, when people ask why I do it and why I run, it was really funny. So many people used to say to me, is this is the last one yeah? This is this is the last race. You're like, you know, retire, what am I retiring from. I'm not a professional athlete, like, you know, I'm just a punter. Like, Why? Why does there always have to be this end? You know, like, Why can I sustain this for long periods of time? If I enjoy it? Yeah. And that's why I needed to make this decision to get my body right now. If that means taking a year out, I take a year out. I get my body, right. I enjoy it for the rest of my life.
Nick Papastamatis :And that's a huge motivator for you to get through this tough time.
Karen Lyle :That's it.
Nick Papastamatis :What if you didn't have a motivator?
Karen Lyle :I think everyone, I mean, something has to drive you, right? I mean, it's very sad if you've got nothing to drive you. And I think that is that comes down to the individual. You know, if you don't have and it's not about having a goal. I don't you know, don't have to have a specific, you know, goal, but you've got to have a purpose.
Jac Simmonds :And you know what I can say you said at the end of the 175 km race how emotional you were, like, I can't wait to see what it's like when you do your first run. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it'll be such a good feeling. I mean, I mean, we'll feel great about it. Like, yeah, wait to see that.
Karen Lyle :Yeah. You know, and all that first one will be is probably 20 seconds, and I will be loving that. Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, that'll be a very short meditation.
Karen Lyle :Yes. It'll be quick, adequate, and will be such a milestone.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, exactly.
Karen Lyle :You know, we will build from there and then you two will have to come running through the bush with me, and that will be a great day too.
Nick Papastamatis :Yes yes we'll be the pacer...not.
Jac Simmonds :I can't do that day.
Nick Papastamatis :Whatever day that is. And you know, thanks for showing that Kaz. And I think I suppose at which...have you ever thought of giving up?
Karen Lyle :Never.
Nick Papastamatis :Wow that's awesome. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So despite all the tough times that you've gone through post surgically and you're now in your 15 week of since surgery, no running, no, you know release. Like, what's some of the thoughts that have gone through your head? I know it's hard but like, what do you...
Karen Lyle :Well I've got to think back to exactly dragging myself in the pouring rain up my driveway on my bum. Like 10 weeks ago...to now.
Nick Papastamatis :Can you repeat that?
Karen Lyle :Yes, sorry. So when I was...
Nick Papastamatis :What happened?
Karen Lyle :When was on the crutches...
Jac Simmonds :I don't think we have ever heard of this.
Nick Papastamatis :No this is new information. You better get the notes out mate.
Karen Lyle :Actually could have been when I had the cast still on. So the cast and the crutches and we're renovating our place at the moment we've got this ridiculously steep driveway. Yeah, like it's crazy steep and it was pouring with rain and I got out of the car and I was like, how am I gonna get up this because it was super slippery. I coulnd't get the like the crutches just kept slipping and falling out. There was no way for me to get up. So I sat down. Just on my bum.
Nick Papastamatis :Bum shuffling.
Karen Lyle :Two bum shuffles, grabbed the crutches moved them up. Two bum shuffles, grabbed the crutches, just pouring rain. I was drenched. I got to the top, kind of laughed. I was like that was pretty funny. And then I thought.
Nick Papastamatis :I knew you would laugh mate. I'd be like fuck this. Right. I'm calling Jac..
Jac Simmonds :I just fucked up my new tights.
Karen Lyle :Well I did. Apparently my nieghbour said she was watching you out the window. Well you could have come and helped.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. Thanks for watching, you dickhead.
Jac Simmonds :Where was Ben at this stage, I was gonna say...
Karen Lyle :The way I had been getting up the driveway was he'd been carrying me.
Nick Papastamatis :Oh, what a sweetheart, what a legend. What a man.
Karen Lyle :Absolute legend. I had to get up and then look if I look from now back to then I'm like, well it's only been 10 weeks I've made a lot of progress in that time. And in the next 10 weeks, you know I'm sure I'm gonna make a whole lot more progress again and then 10 weeks after and you've just got to focus on the little things you know every day when I get out of bed and if there's... I can like the little step over that we had some success with
Nick Papastamatis :We're at the moment. We're teaching Kaz to like step, take a step over something.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, like just like late stage of stance in gait. Yeah. And Kaz is just being able to..
Nick Papastamatis :Just transfer weight.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah get like a normal gait, which is...
Karen Lyle :And how excited was I. We've been trying for...
Nick Papastamatis :We are talking about someone that's run 175 km races, and we're just teaching her to walk again. Yeah.
Karen Lyle :But that was a small win. I could do it and I was very excited, I was like look what I can do. I stepped over something. He was excited. I was excited. Everyone else in the room was just like, ohhh.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, congratulations.
Karen Lyle :What are you doing there? Like you didn't get it like this is big, big win.
Nick Papastamatis :So I've got a couple of takeaways. The first one for me from your story Kaz is you got to focus on the little things. You got to focus on the little things you can't just keep on realizing how far you are from your point B, and then getting bashed by that, because you're not there. Yeah, you got to focus on where the wins are now compared to yesterday. What else is...what would you say is a takeaway here jac?
Jac Simmonds :I reckon, just the one thing you said that you never lost motivation. That's one thing. And dead set like me and Nick had a conversation last week about like my issues with my knee, right? I can word for word you nearly said the same thing, we looked at each other actually. Literally, like nearly said the exact same thing that I said where it's like, we're just coming to the realization that right now you're in pain. Yeah, but we've just got to manage it. Like I've been said the same thing seven days ago. And it's just like, yeah, that was probably a takeaway. This is that realization.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, this is like this really drives me for one of the reasons why we started this podcast, and that is...Kaz your story is unique to you. But the elements throughout your story is the same as Jac. And it's the same as every person who deals with injuries. You go through the same shit. And it is up to what happens in your mind that controls the outcome.
Karen Lyle :Hundred percent, it couldn't be more spot on.
Nick Papastamatis :Which is what I...because I want more patients like you Kaz, because if people had the same mindset to you not necessarily they have to go and do ultra marathons, that's not what we are saying, what we're saying is, if you just focused on the small wins, if you just focused and accepted your point A and, and a realistic outcome in a reasonable time and had a conversation with your practitioner that allowed it allowed, like an ongoing sort of cooperation and a relationship, we would have far better outcomes and people that with chronic pain Far, far, far better. Yeah. And so, you know, people that that stopped coming to see Jac, me, whoever it is, because they lost trust is a breakdown in communication. It's not trust, like we've all started we've all had success. It's your fault that you lost trust because you didn't have a conversation with that practitioner. I didn't go to that GP again, because they didn't do this, well did you try talking to them properly? Did you go twice? No you fucked up now go again to someone else for one visit and see and start the process again, or practitioner or patients that have realized that I don't treat anymore, and they go off to a different company altogether. It's like, well, now you got to start again. So it doesn't that doesn't make sense to me. And I want to that's why your first guest Kaz it's been an honor and a pleasure.
Karen Lyle :It's been absolutely fabulous today boys. I really enjoyed this.
Nick Papastamatis :Thank you. It's been good and and yeah, like if, for those listening, if you have any questions for Kaz, give us a shout out and hope and you know, if you are welcome to share this podcast with whoever might need it right now. Potentially someone who's a bit down and out about the injuries or potentially even another ultra marathon runner who might want to connect with Kaz that you know, to share, to share woes or or to share success stories. So, you know, we're just really pleased and honored to be part of your journey. And yeah, and um.
Jac Simmonds :We've loved it. Yeah, it's been, like Nicko said, it's been awesome working with you lately, especially in Yeah. Thanks for having to chat with us.
Nick Papastamatis :And thanks. And thanks for sharing, like some of the stuff that that, you know, might might not be very public, you know, like, really appreciate that.
Karen Lyle :My pleasure guys.
Nick Papastamatis :We'vejust ticked over an hour. Yep, it's a cold winter's day, and it's time for another coffee. I'm starting to die now.
Jac Simmonds :Thanks, guys.
Nick Papastamatis :Thanks.
Karen Lyle :Thank you.