The Balance Experience
The Balance Experience
So What Now with Kellie Burns
Kellie Burns has over 30 years of real estate experience and an impressive reputation to her name within the industry. Kellie has had her fair share of injuries - lumbar disc herniations, 2x hamstring avulsions requiring surgery, but her biggest challenge....post natal depression. So What Now delves into Kellie's journey and resilience through mental and physical battles, her vice to deal with this you ask?
We've almost wasted Kelly's time.
Kellie Burns :No never.
Jac Simmonds :It's luckily lucky we went in IT Nicko. That's right. I think we're in the right industry.
Nick Papastamatis :I think the world would be fucked if we were in it.
Kellie Burns :Don't change your day job. Yeah, not yet.
Nick Papastamatis :No. Well, I mean, my day job is I don't even know what that is anymore.
Kellie Burns :What is your day job now? Entrepreneur! Yeah?
Nick Papastamatis :I just provide quality assurance. How's your session? That's about it.
Kellie Burns :Do you handle complaints?
Nick Papastamatis :We don't have that many. I reckon, we probably have maybe 1% a month.
Kellie Burns :That's low.
Nick Papastamatis :Not even. That's not including people that aren't getting better. Maybe like people that don't get better probably don't complain.
Kellie Burns :They just don't come back.
Nick Papastamatis :They just don't come back yeah. Yeah. They go by the waist side really.
Kellie Burns :What sort of retention? Do you have that you know, those numbers?
Nick Papastamatis :The retention rate is extremely high, actually. I mean, the quality assurance... I mean, we pick up people that have had an appointment after that... picks up people that have had one appointment with no future. Two appointments with no future. And I sit... I review all the cases at three visits.
Kellie Burns :Okay. Yeah.
Jac Simmonds :So we have, like, all of us have, like a monthly check in with Nick. And there's more than that, actually. But yeah, we just go over case notes. Yeah, it's really good.
Nick Papastamatis :It's more like, I don't know, I don't know what the retention is of patients that after three visits, after I've seen that everything, we've had a duty of care, like we've ticked all the boxes in terms of then I'm comfortable.
Kellie Burns :Yeah. Okay. Is there an industry standard in that regard?
Nick Papastamatis :That's what we are.
Kellie Burns :Right!
Nick Papastamatis :There isn't one.
Kellie Burns :Yeah, right.
Nick Papastamatis :Doesn't exist.
Kellie Burns :Which is a shame, isn't it? Because I know with gyms and things like that there are standard KPIs.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. You gotta get to know those numbers, though. Because otherwise you're just completely unaware of what's going on.
Kellie Burns :Well, I can tell you the numbers, I can tell you how many appraisals you need to do to list a property. Yeah, at least to then generate a sale and that those numbers...
Jac Simmonds :Even separate from the business side of it, just to know that you're giving a good service as well. Like...
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, yeah.
Kellie Burns :Bench marking.
Nick Papastamatis :It is very hard to figure out who drops off and why. But we know that approximately on a survey, and they've that a, one of the clinic mastery, and they did a survey. I don't know of how many, but they found that about 60 odd percent 65%...67% of people stop seeing their practitioner because they've perceived that they don't care.
Kellie Burns :Wow that's high. Yeah. Wow.
Nick Papastamatis :So they perceived that the practitioner didn't care so they just dropped off.
Kellie Burns :And then went elsewhere presumably at some point again.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah.
Jac Simmonds :That's interesting cause I reckon if you asked practitioners that they would give like a completely opposite answer to that they'd be like, they'd be like all the patient didn't have the motivation or something like external to them.
Kellie Burns :Couldn't afford it anymore.
Jac Simmonds :Or something like that. Yeah, that's that's really interesting to know.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, I think it's I think it's on something for you. I don't think I don't think and you know, talking to kill before coming upstairs. You were saying how a lot of practitioners don't really understand the the impact of what they say, you know, there is this God complex. Of course, I care and I'm right. Yes. And you will do we will do as I say, Yeah, but no real. no real way of showing that.
Kellie Burns :I think the medical profession as a as whole as we chatted about, I don't know whether this is a byproduct of the degree process or the university process, there is this sense of, I've got a degree you haven't so we're going to do it my way. But nothing replaces that human factor in anything in the world. And in that ability to sort of connect on that personal level, you can't teach someone that. So you can be the smartest student coming out of your university degree. But if you don't then offset that with a degree of care, and flexibility, like you have to... how you treat me and how you walk into the room with me, is gonna be very different to the next person. So you have to be adaptable as well in terms of what does this person need? As you know, I'm a questioner. But But why, but why are we doing this? Why are you doing that? Why are you putting those needles in my leg, etc, but a lot of other people probably aren't like that. So you have to just accept that that's how the patient is and adapt accordingly. That's that's what carries I think.
Nick Papastamatis :What do you reckon Jac?
Jac Simmonds :I reckon a lot of it comes down to like, especially new graduates. Coming out of university, you've just done a like, five, six year degree, whatever it might be, you have all this knowledge and you want to they want to, and I know I was one of them. You want people to know how much you know, you know what I mean? And it's almost it's it becomes like a little bit more about the practitioner and a little bit less about the patient. And like, it shouldn't be like that at all. Like it needs to be showing the patient that you care more than what how much you know. yeah, exactly.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, that's right. I mean, you know, I mean, we've hardly done an intro, haven't we? I mean, we've got just gone straight into it. I think we've already skipped the question 6. But you know, what, maybe we should start by you know, I presume that you know, the people that are listening are either going to be, you know, people that have had experiences as a patient or practitioners. And I think that's the...and what we're trying to do is actually just try and bridge the gap between the two because one's expecting one thing and the other party's expecting another. The problem that practitioners have is it's not about you. It's about the patient. Yep. And it doesn't matter how smart you are, how good you are. It really comes down to been appreciating what the patient does. And I thought I couldn't think of anyone better to have on this podcast and you know, we've we met several years ago. Didn't we Kel?
Kellie Burns :6, 7 years ago? In your early days!
Nick Papastamatis :Yes. Before I had a beard.
Kellie Burns :Yes. Before you were married, right?
Jac Simmonds :The fresh faced Nick Papastamatis.
Kellie Burns :Taling about new business. All that stuff? Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Nick Papastamatis :I was ahh...I was youthfully exuberant, one would say.
Kellie Burns :Love it, a good way to put it.
Jac Simmonds :What are you now?
Kellie Burns :Mature and exuberant.
Jac Simmonds :Weathered and exuberant.
Nick Papastamatis :Weathered. I noticed a couple of grey's in my beard the other day and I'm getting older before I'm ready. Yeah, but anyway.
Kellie Burns :That's business ownership that is.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, you reckon?
Kellie Burns :Oh 100%.
Nick Papastamatis :It's called staff. What do you reckon Jac?
Jac Simmonds :Could be.
Nick Papastamatis :So maybe Kel it I might help because I think you know Jac hasn't really had too much experience with you. I know you've read her file so you've got history.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, I guess to give a bit of context.
Kellie Burns :You got a bit of time on your hands.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, exactly. Yeah, nah to give a bit of context...I...I hadn't met Kellie until today. Yeah, had a chat with Nick about your history and everything and had a little read of your treatment notes. But yeah, yeah. So I'm, I'm fairly, I guess new to your story. So it'd be interesting to it'll be interesting to hear everything.
Nick Papastamatis :So why don't we Why don't we just start off about you know who Kelly is who are the people listening to right now because I can't see you..who are the people listening to right now. You know, maybe who you are, what you do, how old you are and what you're trying to do with your health.
Kellie Burns :So I'm nearly 52 in a few weeks time, I know right. I've always been sort of dabbled a little bit, I guess in the gym, you know, aerobics back in the day, you know, all that sort of stuff on and off at different times. But as I got older, you know, weight became an issue in what am I going to do? How am I going to keep it off all that sort of thing, and I ramped it up a little bit more, started the personal trainer journey, and I've had a few along the way and finally found a place where I'm really happy around that. But what I discovered fairly quickly is that I'm not athletically gifted by any stretch of the imagination. I had a brother who was incredibly gifted, but that was not me. I got I got the brains he got the athletic ability. But I had to find a way that I found exercise enjoyable. So for me, that was the gym. But I soon discovered that I got injured very, very easily. For whatever reason,
Nick Papastamatis :What age did you start exercising?
Kellie Burns :Um, I think the teenage sort of early 20s thing, and then I probably had about 20 years off well, sort of thing. And I, in hindsight now, like I say to my kids, they're 17 and 18, start moving now and keep moving. Otherwise you play catch up. Yeah. So my husband was a professional soccer player. And now he's a top 10 Iron Man. And he says, I've been doing it since I was nine years old, and I haven't stopped. So he never gets injured.
Nick Papastamatis :But let's not talk about him now because he's unbreakable.
Kellie Burns :He's unbreakable. He does all the things you're not supposed to do. This is not a good example. But you've got to get moving and you've got to keep moving. Whereas I had that time off having kids and all that sort of stuff. And I probably am still now playing catch up. But what I discovered is that ...Yeah, I'm very, I do get injured very easily, and that's where you and I met Nick. I think when I first came to see you, I had a, what we soon discovered was a bulging disc, pretty standard, middle aged, overweight woman with a bulging disc. What do we do? How do we manage that? So we did manage it. Strengthened up did all the things we're supposed to do, then had a bit of a mishap in a gym. Did an exercise that I probably shouldn't have done in hindsight and ruptured that disc. And I think I remember messaging you that afternoon saying, is it good that I can't feel my right leg and I've got shooting pains down my right leg? You said no...
Nick Papastamatis :I think I called you at that point.
Kellie Burns :You did. I was I was texting you quite calmly. You see we need to get you in for an MRI and had an MRI and you referred me to a surgeon straight away and she basically said how you standing why would not last function of your bowels because it was fragmented of the discs were everywhere, had blown.
Nick Papastamatis :It was a it was a lovely thing for a surgeon to say.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, it's funny how surgeons can sometimes come out with stuff like that.
Kellie Burns :She was an interesting one. Yeah, it did but it was like okay, let's operate.
Jac Simmonds :Oh, yeah. Straight away, that's emergency Yeah,
Kellie Burns :Yeah. So did that and that that began that rehab journey...with with with Nick alongside me and that was ...it was scary, you know, once someone starts playing with your back and that sort of thing, and there was talk of fusions and all sorts of things, but I think that was really the point where I decided I was not going to be that person that then use that as an excuse. You know, I've got a bad back. I can't do that.
Nick Papastamatis :So before that, so you had 20 years off? Yeah. Then you started training, what what type of training what you're doing? What was your entry level back into exercise?
Kellie Burns :Um, group classes. Yeah. And then I had a PT that would tailor then things. I realized fairly early that group classes were one thing, but because of my special needs, and I use that, you know, pretty much tongue in cheek, I needed a personal trainer that understood my own challenges and can tailor some unique...unique...Yeah, could tailor something for me. So that's why personal training has always been my thing.
Jac Simmonds :It is the downfall of group training, sometimes that it's just not individualized enough.
Kellie Burns :No.
Jac Simmonds :When you got back into training after having, like, obviously, a long period off, how did you find, I guess your motivation was early on or your compliance to exercise? Did you struggle or were you were pretty good early on?
Kellie Burns :I was pretty good, I guess I was very focused on weight loss at that point. So for me, it was all about building the calories like that simple. And I've sort of evolved well beyond that now but at that stage was Weight Watchers and eating less moving more that simple that sort of thing so a little bit more sophisticated now in terms of how I train and what I eat, and all those sorts of things. But I learned that I enjoyed it. Yeah, great. You know I have had I at that point also, I had been diagnosed postnatal depression. My children are 12 months apart. When my son was three months old, I was in a massive black hole. Yeah. And my GP at the time said you need to get out there and start exercising.
Nick Papastamatis :So So Kellie at that point, was...how old were you back then?
Kellie Burns :35
Nick Papastamatis :So you were 35...35 overweight, postnatal depression. Hmm. And how hard were you working? At that point did you have a business? Was it your business?
Kellie Burns :No.
Nick Papastamatis :Okay.
Kellie Burns :I didn't.
Nick Papastamatis :So it's not like you were running hard as a director as well.
Kellie Burns :No not at that point. No, no, it was all about...
Nick Papastamatis :Because just those two is enough.
Kellie Burns :Yeah. And I had to one... my children are 12 months apart so I had two little babies as well. So that was that was hard. But I worked out pretty quickly even just walking the block with two kids in the pram, how good that made me feel. How immediately I went from 2 out of 10 to an 8 out of 10.
Nick Papastamatis :Wow.
Kellie Burns :Like straightaway so that was then... that connection between exercise and my mental health was was forged then and has remained the cornerstone of, for me, being okay.
Jac Simmonds :It's probably under appreciated that effective of exercise. Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :But were you.... before that....It's an interesting point that you raise, you went from a 2... mentally 2 out of 10 to an 8 out of 10, do you call yourself mentally aware though?
Kellie Burns :I probably wasn't then that was the start of it. Okay. But, um, that's still very much a journey that I'm on your terms of because that is transitory. You know, as I said, I had a brother who was addicted to exercise. He was...He took his own life in 2012. But until...up until that point he exercised every day because it held the demons off. But that in itself is not enough. No, but it's a big big piece. Big piece.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. Wow, it's probably topical this week as well, I guess.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah yesterday was are you okay day? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think I think that when when I asked Kel, you know, how mentally how she how she is with her mental awareness. I actually consider Kel to probably be one of my patients that are most mentally aware of how she feels and how to express that. Yeah. And there's no fear of vulnerability with you Kel. No, you're always happy to express how something makes you feel. Yeah. And you're not scared to react to something if that's what it deserves.
Kellie Burns :No, I think again, without sort of laboring at too much, when Sean passed away, what killed him ultimately was stigma. So he was a high performing member of the NSW police force then went into NRL strengthing and conditioning trainer for the Parramatta Eels, classic type A personality. What killed him was the inability to say I'm not okay.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, wow.
Kellie Burns :For me the small thing that I can do is say to people well, it's okay to not be and it's such a cliche. But people that know me know, I've been seeing a psychologist on and off for 20 odd years, medicated at different times on and off, depending on what's going on in my life. And it's okay. But exercise is the cornerstone. And what I eat.
Jac Simmonds :100%
Kellie Burns :The other piece to that.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, it's a big part. And then like Nick said, as well, it's not the only thing. Yeah, like, obviously, it's a big role to play in mental health.
Kellie Burns :It's the most easily accessed.
Jac Simmonds :Exactly.
Kellie Burns :You can walk at any point and feel better.
Jac Simmonds :100% Yeah, but having having a good network around you. Yeah, exactly...is super important.
Nick Papastamatis :Having a good network. Absolutely.
Jac Simmonds :Hundred percent.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. I think that's why the group classes were so popular. I mean, you know, when we talk about CrossFit it was I mean having that camaraderie and that feeling of support...seeing your mates everyday...seeing your mates everyday and just you know, if they see that you're a bit down it's not like they don't know. Course they're gonna pat you on the back. Yeah. And if you know if that... if you stop rocking up, I mean, one of the one of the things I found the most amazing about CrossFit was it was so many friendships, marriages, all these sorts of things blossomed from from CrossFit.
Kellie Burns :Community right?
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. community, which I thought blended the two, which was, I suppose indirect... indirect, community support and mental support really. And I think I think CrossFit has been beneficial beyond belief. For many reasons, one being that it set up a flat platform for people to actually talk, express themselves and pat each other on the back.
Kellie Burns :And accomplishment. As humans, we need purpose. And we need to set ourselves little goals. So for me, my rep goal and my weight, my weight goals, not gonna be the same as somebody else's. But in any group environment, you've got your own little goals and to achieve that and go on to the next one, I think is what exercise also gives you.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. So initially with your...initially with your training, your initial goal was weight loss.
Kellie Burns :Yeah.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. Okay. And then I guess what's been the progression with your like training journey since then?
Kellie Burns :Once I had the back issues, then we had to start this journey with this understanding more, so I guess we had to unpack what my biomechanical issues were. And there're many.
Nick Papastamatis :We spent...Yeah. And I like when I look back at what...what I was trying to achieve with you. Not that I cringe. But...
Jac Simmonds :If there were cameras in the room right now you are cringing.
Nick Papastamatis :I do laugh a little at myself for you know, if I was if I was doing quality assurance for myself, I'd be like, Mate, you're kidding yourself. Right? Trying to make these girl run perfectly. You're a fucking idiot. You're basically setting this girl up for failure. Yeah.
Kellie Burns :But it was my expectations on you as well.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, but yeah, it was just it was just I didn't have enough experience at that time. Yeah, right. And you know, we went on a path of post surgically trying to... like apart from apart from like rehabbing you and getting you back right. Then trying to set you up so that it wouldn't happen again. Although my intention was good. Yep. And your intention was good Yeah. We managed to expect out well, it managed have expectations for us, didn't it?
Kellie Burns :Yeah. Cause something else happen?
Nick Papastamatis :Exactly. Let's talk about that.
Kellie Burns :So then I sort of went on a running path and we've I've have quickly discovered that running you know, running well is not my thing as you keep saying I've got the longest femurs in you know, from relative to my height, it's not not my and then tiny little feet. I'm not engineered well, so then I decided I'd do other stuff and....
Nick Papastamatis :Better off on the bike hey?
Kellie Burns :I got on a bike, my husband's a great cyclist,he took me out for my first ever road bike adventure. I tried to clip in...hyperextended my right leg, snap my hamstring off the bone, at the point of attachment.
Jac Simmonds :How long after the discectomy was that?
Kellie Burns :Ah maybe 2 years? Okay, so it was going great. I'm pretty good. Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :Shit. No, you you were coming into me with hints of hami pain.
Kellie Burns :Yes, that's right.
Nick Papastamatis :Which I thought was your back.
Kellie Burns :We were unsure what was causing it.
Jac Simmonds :Like hami...hamstring tendon pain?
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, it was hami tendinitis. I thought it was a referral from the spine. And I was more fearful of a recurrence. Sent you off to the sports doc, and the sports doc made a mockery of me, and um...which is another God complex industry. But um...could understand why I made that mistake, and of course she was right.
Jac Simmonds :Right. So so were getting into the bike and...
Kellie Burns :So that was another surgery, so basically then I had an MRI and they said you this is a sort of it retracted, I think about three centimeters at that point. And they said, it's a lesser known surgery. It's a newer type of surgery that only a couple surgeons in Australia do. Well, so what and so David Woods, he was great.
Jac Simmonds :Ah David Wood knows me well.
Kellie Burns :Oh, really? He was, you know, there were surgeons and there were surgeons. He's a good guy.
Nick Papastamatis :He's one of the few that do the hami reattachment surgeries really well.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, he actually did an experimental surgery with me as well.
Kellie Burns :Oh wow, there you go, yeah and I loved him, he made me laugh, but he didn't...he treated me...cause he was telling me he had not long done Michelle Bridges surgery, the exact same one. So he was treating me like he treated her, and I respected that, like that was great. So I had that reattached, started rehab again, off we went again.
Nick Papastamatis :So what was the difference between, without naming the orginal surgeon for your lower back, what was difference...because both surgeries were a success.
Kellie Burns :Technically, 100%.
Nick Papastamatis :But how do you feel about both surgeries?
Kellie Burns :The first one, I would not go back to under any. Because she made me feel like the questions I was asking. It was almost eye rolling, really, because I was really nervous that I had reruptured at any point like, what's this pain? What's that pain? Whereas this David Woods was totally different. No question was dumb.
Nick Papastamatis :It was non judgmental.
Kellie Burns :Not at all. Yeah, and it was like....and he was funny.
Nick Papastamatis :How important is it for a patient, and you know you specifically, and putting yourself in other peoples shoes for example, how important is it for you to come to a chiropractor or physiotherapist and feel...what's the difference between feeling judged and not feeling judged?
Kellie Burns :Huge. Yeah, I have left practitioners previously, because I would walk in there and not feel that I was almost good enough for this particular practitioner to treat me because I'm a middle aged female that goes to the gym, I'm not an athlete. I'm trying to be, I'm trying to be the best you know be as strong as I possibly can, but to walk into a practice, which I always have here and felt like I have, the experience I'm going to get is exactly the same as if Andrew walked in, for example, my husband who is next level, that's what I want.
Jac Simmonds :If I might ask this question, because I guess, what was the when you initially saw Nick, what was it about Nick, that, I guess, that you liked in a practitioner or what?
Nick Papastamatis :Fuck. I think I need to leave the room.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, no, no, but I guess what, what were the qualities of that made you stick with Nick? Because obviously, you know, it's six years, six years, five years, six years later, and you know, we're still we still would balance Yeah.
Kellie Burns :Although he probably doesn't realize it he was never adamant that he was right. Yep. Like, I think it might be this. Let's try this. As in we let's try this. Not you go and try this. Let's try this. And then he would check in. How's that? How'd that go? How are those rehab exercises going? Little things like a text. Yeah, a couple of days later to say how are those exercises going it is such a minor thing from your guy's point of view. But it's like, oh, they haven't just shuffled me off into my next appointment. They are still I am still top of mind. And that's important.
Jac Simmonds :I think that's a cool thing we do is and I don't know if, like if you're aware, but like no one I've ever worked for like, I mean, we don't know, don't text off our personal number. And I think that's really cool that we do that. I think it makes us accessible. It makes people that you know, know that we care.
Kellie Burns :Absolutely, yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :This is a fallocy of the industry. And this is not about you Kel, this is sort of a quick segmway, tangent, I'll keep it quick. Business owners in the allied health industry are fuckiing delusional. They think that they own the patients, at the same time they wana get all their staff members to be subcontractors so that they can disperse their insurance, and be like No you don't tehcnically work for me, but I own th patient. And I'm not going to allows you to text all our opatients by your phoine, because if you leave, you've got their numbers. Yeah which is a problem, but the goodwill hardly ever sits with Balance Health and Peformance, the goodwill hardly sits with anyone. It comes down to the leaders...the company's capacity and the capability of the leader to be able to connect with people like you on an ongoing basis. I don't treat patients anymore, but somehow you're still here Kel. So it really comes down to the leaders capacity to have...be in touch with the business all the time, be in touch with the staff members all the time, and know that if the staff member leaves, you've actually set them up for success anyway. It's teh greater good we are looking for, so business owners out there, are delusional, insecure, scarce, ego driven, and they're scared, and people like that just shouldn't be hiring staff. So if you're scared of that and you're a business owner out there, a clinic owner, that's saying shit I think thats me, or if you are actually arguing with my points now, that's even more pertinent that's probably YOU, and you need to do some self work or stop hiring people.
Kellie Burns :Yeah. I think, yes, as business owners, you have to disseminate culture. That's such a cliche culture, even in my industry.
Nick Papastamatis :Because what do you do Kel?
Kellie Burns :Um, well, I'm a real estate agent and business owner. So my husband Andrew and I, we opened up our own office nine years ago now. Which is incredible. And that's been a journey in itself. But yeah, the minute you lose sight of of two things, your staff and your staff have a choice every day, whether they walk in your door or not. You've got to respect that and your clients in doing that they sense that you're just in it for the money, you're gone. Yeah. And I think that again, relates to your industry as well. There are a lot of chiropractors out there. There are a lot of physios out there. There are a lot of sports and medical professionals out there and you have to respect that person is making the choice to come to you.
Jac Simmonds :Hundred percent.
Nick Papastamatis :Totally.
Kellie Burns :Not take it for granted.
Nick Papastamatis :That's definitely not something I take lightly, that's actually a huge burden and a responsibility.
Jac Simmonds :The other interesting thing you said Kellie, was that you respected that Nick wasn't saying that he was 100% right in his like hypothesis initially. Which I think is sometimes the arrogance of like chiros and physios can be nup this is definitely the reason why you're getting hamstring pain or back pain or whatever it might be. Not the not like just I guess being like, okay, let's explore some options. Yeah. Yeah, I think that was interesting. And would you say that that's something that you valued?
Kellie Burns :Absolutely. Because I think I had to learn I think any patient that comes in to see a health professional thinking that they know 100% what the problem is. I learned that early on that it's not we're not it's not an exact science. Now we think of it science, but it's really not. It is trial and error. And I think you have to take some ownership of that yourself. As the patient, I can do your own research. And you've always said to me get off Google, don't Google it. But information gives you knowledge as well.
Nick Papastamatis :I think now, I just assume that patients have googled it. Yeah. And I'm just like, Google will tell you this. Yeah. Like, yeah it did, ok cool. Well, let me just bring you back in here.
Kellie Burns :Yeah it's true. I think by not being adamant when it has turned out in a few occasions, Nick, that you weren't right. Yeah, that was okay. Yeah. It was like, Okay, well...
Nick Papastamatis :So it's just because I bought myself...it's interesting, because I'm self reflecting here now as well. So bare with me. So it was more important to you that I gave both of us wiggle room, than actually being certain?
Kellie Burns :100%.
Nick Papastamatis :Wow. That's pretty cool.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. That's good. And again, like it's probably a it's probably a realization that a lot of practitioners could come to is that they don't have to be 100%. right all the time. As long as you're trying to be right. I think you...
Nick Papastamatis :I think you just need to be confident in the fact that you're uncertain.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, yeah.
Kellie Burns :And what you've just said then is brilliant. So if you are If you are expressing it in terms of I don't know. Yeah, but that's different to look, I think it's this. Yeah. But we'll explore that it's in the delivery. Definitely. But you still don't have confidence that if it's not that you've got a plan B,
Jac Simmonds :Don't beat a dead horse. Yeah. Like don't keep going keep pushing to fix something if it's not causing change.
Kellie Burns :No. Yeah. Because you're so adamant that it has to be that.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah that's just arrogance.
Nick Papastamatis :I think it was a... when we talked about that misdiagnosis on my end with the hami. I think I did treat it as if it was low back pain. Yeah. And didn't change. No, at which point we went and saw a sports doctor. Yep, had the MRI and then gave me a slap on the wrist. Yeah. And had the MRI and showed a hamstring tear at that point. And then I ruptured it. Yeah.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. Around the time that you ruptured your hamstring. So you'd obviously recovered from the discectomy will you back into like a pretty full training load by then?
Kellie Burns :Yeah at that point, I discovered, through Nick's guidance, yoga, a few other things that really... and I haven't had back issues since the discectomy I can say, which is great. Yoga and strength training then became my thing, but okay, well, I'm not cardio focused clearly. But strength training became my thing and getting everything strong around my posterior chain, all that sort of stuff, which I really love. And I still continue to love that. And I guess that, you know, as a 50 odd year old woman, don't be scared of weights either. Because that's become my thing. For sure. That's cool. Yeah. And the older you get, I can say you then become that person that's strong for their age. So you just got to keep going in Steven Bradbury style of being good for your age.
Nick Papastamatis :You certainly don;t look 52 I mean, I've traded lots of 50s and 60s. Yeah. And 40s. Yeah. And you're definitely not physically reflecting 52 so well done.
Kellie Burns :Quality of life is why I do it now. Yeah.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, like how did... like after the hamstring reattachment, how did you think because you just recovered from a discectomy, how did that feel initially when you when you hear from the surgeon oh God we got it like gotta go through another rehab?
Kellie Burns :Do you know what I always managed to keep perspective. Like I always there was always someone worse off, so I never really...with the back I definitely had that oh this is shit. Why me? But then with the hamstring it was like and I said I've got a really good personal trainers at my gym, who really have always found a way to keep me moving even if I couldn't move my little lower body. There is always someone worse off. Yeah, you know, I didn't have cancer, I had an injury, you know, and then because the the final piece to that was a couple years later than I was in the Margaret River having a nice little holiday with my husband, slipped over in the bathroom and tore the left hamstring off the bone.
Jac Simmonds :Really?
Kellie Burns :Back to Woodsy.
Jac Simmonds :Right.
Kellie Burns :We're on nickname terms now? I had his number, texted him, said guess what I think I've done it again!
Nick Papastamatis :See there is that accessibility.
Jac Simmonds :So he gave you his number as well? Wow.
Kellie Burns :Come on down, he was about to go on Christmas holidays and he said let's go. Yeah let's put you in and because I've been through it before I knew what was involved. Yeah touchwood no surgeries since then.
Nick Papastamatis :Literally touch wood?
Kellie Burns :Literally touch wood!
Nick Papastamatis :Right, yeah. Let's leave that one alone I think hahaha.
Kellie Burns :But I guess I saw each rehab as a journey of discovery in terms of okay, let's see how much better I can get after this. Yeah, let's let's rebuild.
Jac Simmonds :So you didn't have a second hamstring reattachment?
Kellie Burns :Yep.
Jac Simmonds :Oh, you did? So you have had 2 right, okay. In the like, after you had the reattachment...the first one. Do you...how did you find I guess like what we've discovered lately is the first one to six weeks after these orthopedic surgeries, mentally a pretty tough Yeah. How did you find it after after the surgery?
Kellie Burns :Um yeah, I felt pretty yuck. Yeah. Because exercise releases serotonin and dopamine and all that stuff I felt but it was my mortar term to get moving sooner rather than later. Yeah. But each of these as I said it's been opportunity, I guess to sort of say I'm just not meant to do this. It's not meant to exercise.
Nick Papastamatis :How many times did that actually come up? I mean...
Kellie Burns :Not not I never thought it but people would say to me.
Nick Papastamatis :Because since your first disc issue seven years ago, how many times has that...have you undulated from super motivated?
Kellie Burns :Oh God.
Nick Papastamatis :To I fuckin wanna throw the towel in.
Kellie Burns :Yeah, this is too hard.
Nick Papastamatis :Or this is too hard.
Kellie Burns :Yeah. 9, 10, 11 times.
Nick Papastamatis :Once or twice a year you're just like fuck this.
Kellie Burns :Yeah. I'm just gonna get fat. Fuck it. Just give me some Maccas. Yeah, but I have the good fortune of being married to someone who exercise is a daily part of his life. And mentally, I can't imagine not exercising, I fear if it ever does get to the point where I can't exercise like I do my own mental state of mind. But there is always a way to then menopause hit. That's a whole other treat. You know, in terms of all the energy ups and downs and weight gain lots of stuff. So I had to reset again, in terms of Okay, heaps of cardio just wasn't working for me anymore in terms of keeping the weight off. So then we had to revisit more strength training and reverse dieting, that sort of stuff, which...which has been a real journey, but you just have to keep finding a way. And people say, What are you training for? I'm training for life, which is, again, such a wonky cliche, but it's true. We have to get up in the morning when my kids have great kids and be that person.
Nick Papastamatis :But you're not training so that you can..it's I think people need to recalibrate what the purpose of functional training is I mean, you train with a with you an excellent trainer, I have a lot of respect for your trainers. They take a very, very good holistic view to health where it's mind body and whatever goes in your mouth as well.
Kellie Burns :Hundred percent.
Nick Papastamatis :And it's one of those things that I think is misconstrued your training for life so that you...like you've gone from a mental 2 out of 10 to an 8 out of 10 by going for a walk around the fuckin block. You know, it's not a matter of, you know, how well can I run 5km, yeah, that's that's not you know, it's more like, can I run across the road not fall apart? Number one number 2, am I feeling good? Yeah, yeah. That's all like.
Kellie Burns :At my optimal. Yeah. And I look at people, particularly women, my age who are carrying that weight and that whole Mum, wine culture and have a drink of wine every day and they're feeling shitty. Yeah. But until you've had a taste of what it feels like to feel good, I don't think they get it totally. And I wish that for everyone.Honestly.
Jac Simmonds :They probably just don't stick with it for long enough to feel the effects of it. Yeah, exactly.
Kellie Burns :Patience is key. But it's little things that we've been away for a couple of days at Hamilton Island and we just decided...
Nick Papastamatis :When just now?
Kellie Burns :Yeah yeah, this week.
Nick Papastamatis :Shit I thought you looked relaxed.
Kellie Burns :Back to reality, but little things like we went to a day trip to Whitehaven Beach and we decided we go for the seven km walk along Whitehaven Beach. Now you can't do that. Unless you have a degree of just everyday fitness. Yeah, that's right. You want to get the most out of every day.
Nick Papastamatis :Seven km's is amlong the way. Yeah. Solid effort.
Kellie Burns :Yeah, it was good. Yeah. But to do that, and we did Kokoda. That was like, we've had little goals along the way.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, you'd miss out on those things otherwise wouldn't you?
Kellie Burns :Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I just wish I'd have started earlier, to be honest.
Nick Papastamatis :What um, how impactful and I know, I know your husband Andrew already has a big head. So...
Kellie Burns :Hi, Andrew.
Nick Papastamatis :Love you mate. What...how important is it having a supportive partner?
Kellie Burns :Oh, yeah, it's crucial. Like I have friends whose partners are not on the same page and it's yeah they're eating the wrong food having said all their Andrew's diet is not as good as it should be he gets away with it. He does, he's a little bit younger and he exercises like a demon every day. But his commitment to exercise and training and the importance of it...
Nick Papastamatis :He's an athlete mate...genetic. Yeah, it's very hard to compare that shit.
Kellie Burns :Yeah. Which has made it hard for me to be honest with everything I do just pales into insignificance compared to what he does. I've always struggled with that. What do you do?
Nick Papastamatis :But that's that's because of comparison.
Kellie Burns :Which is my which is my problem. Not hiss, he said, I'm not comparing you to me. You are kind of thing. But you need somebody that was not necessarily understood. We don't we we've only ever exercise together throughout the Kokoda training period, we'll go for big treks together. That was probably the darkest stage of our marriage I reckon we want to kill each other really, but we're just different we're just wired different he knows a lot of...
Nick Papastamatis :Obviously it's personal but you know, if you're happy to share.
Kellie Burns :He's just he's just such a strong minded we're doing it my way. I know what I'm doing. I was a professional athlete whereas I'm can be a little bit strong minded as well. So many occasions. We just went in different directions. It was just easier. Yeah, different pages.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, but I think that's a common tune actually like yeah, I couldn't imagine training with my wife, she'd drive me nuts.
Kellie Burns :And I'm sure he did, I'm sure jeeze just to shut the fuck up. Yeah. You got blisters? Yeah, I get it suck it up. I'm sure in his head. But anyway.
Nick Papastamatis :You know what happens to me because Kat is is she's also a little bit like Andrew in that she's an athlete. And she's been training since she was, you know, in the womb. And, like, she's..we finish a workout I am dead set fucked. I'm panting like a fucking racehorse. She's not and she she literally she's just like I'm gonna go do the shopping yeah and I'll come back and by the end you should have recovered.
Jac Simmonds :Go for round 2.
Kellie Burns :Yeah recovering. Yeah that's...you know I'm better at things that he's there's there are things I'm better at.
Jac Simmonds :It's also like different perspective of exercise right like i mean i'm sure Kat exercises for a different reason you know to you and Andrew for you and yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :I think I think Kat, I think that exercises I'm not at the point where I exercise for mental health.
Kellie Burns :Really?
Nick Papastamatis :Nah I don't I actually look at exercise as a bit of a pain in the ass on it. If I don't exercise it affects my energy. Okay, so I'm not as energetic, mentally makes no fucking difference to me. Okay, if I exercise I'm like, yeah, exercise cool. I'm proud of myself, but I would prefer to do about a thousand other things.
Kellie Burns :Yeah. You know what, I think it's just come to me because I have had so many injuries along the way. The very few times that I've been uninjured and feeling 100% I really appreciate it. Yeah, I can actually go to the gym and do everything I want to do. Yeah, so probably value it more because I have had all those challenges.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, you sort of wind back to when you're like post operative or when you're grateful for for being able to move.
Nick Papastamatis :Did you look at pain, niggles, injury as just part of the process?
Kellie Burns :100%.
Nick Papastamatis :Okay, yeah, at which point did you realize that?
Kellie Burns :Probably after the back, yep. Because you said to me at that point, look, there's no disc left at L5/S1, there's very little there. So the reality is, you're probably going to have ongoing aches and pains no matter what. Okay? And the visual of my understanding, okay, it was nothing there. So, to sort of think I think about it logically, so other things are gonna hurt a little bit. You've just got to accept that my biggest problem has been differentiating between what is just soreness and what is injury? Because I've had, I'm not always able to discern between the two anymore. So I just push through, sometimes to my own detriment.
Nick Papastamatis :So I suppose there's...you know, when I when I'm critically when I critically appraise what I've said to you back then again, my own worst critic, I would again would have given myself wiggle room because you took it that way. You would have looked at it as an opportunity to accept it. Yeah. Other people would have been like, Fuck, now what? It's always gonna be there
Jac Simmonds :And catastrophize that the problem.
Nick Papastamatis :Yes.
Kellie Burns :Did you know the irony is because you said that to me. I very rarely had back pain anymore. Yeah, so I feel like that's a real victory to me.
Nick Papastamatis :I reckon I need to change what I said. I reckon what I need to do is say there is very little disc left, if there is very little disc left so it shouldn't send off any signals.
Kellie Burns :Yeah, right.
Nick Papastamatis :Okay. And if it does send off signals, it's probably not the disc and is probably something compensating.
Kellie Burns :Yeah. Interesting.
Nick Papastamatis :That's probably what I would have said today. Yeah.
Jac Simmonds :Because you've taken that. That what Nick said, in a way that not many people would.
Nick Papastamatis :I think I think I was lucky.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah. Yeah. Like I think sometimes we just don't realize the effects of the words we say.
Kellie Burns :And I don't think you guys realize how much we really listen. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think it's underestimated the power of the words. And yeah, and we actually listen. Yeah. A lot.
Nick Papastamatis :I think the other thing is that patients also take...they don't take away explanations. I mean, you asked me the other day, what is dry needling do? Do you remember that explanation? Do you remember that explanation?
Kellie Burns :Nup.
Nick Papastamatis :Nup, because yeah, that's that's not what people hold on to they hold on to the offhand comments.
Kellie Burns :Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
Nick Papastamatis :They hold on to the that I don't remember saying that to Kel.
Kellie Burns :Yeah, right.
Nick Papastamatis :Like that, for me would have been an offhand press the...
Kellie Burns :Yeah but it was good for me. So when I went back into the gym and I was still a bit sore and achy, but yeah, this is okay. Because Nick said, I'm gonna have some. It's but you know, and then in time, I just thought, yeah, yeah, I think, but everyone's different. The challenge for you guys is being able to assess a new patient in terms of personality type, and go, Okay, this person needs to be this way. And then it's a matter of matching up practitioners to patients because obviously practitioners have all got different personality types too.
Jac Simmonds :Yes, not every practitioner is right for every patient but um, I think the other side of it is like, patient's perception of what pain is can sometimes be different as well like at the end of the day, the dictionary definition...
Kellie Burns :I often wonder about that?
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, pain is just a perception of threat from our nervous system and I guess the the level of threat is individual to everyone and it's a mix of like internal and external like it's a mix of what their understanding of pain is and then the external being what the practitioner tells them.`
Kellie Burns :Set them up for.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, exactly. I've got one of my one of my good mates tore his ACL didn't get surgery. Yeah. Cuz the guy was fucking Superman. Yeah, doesn't get injured this guy. He's like, Andrew, you know, whatever he does turns to gold. Yeah, bastard. If you're listening fuck you.
Jac Simmonds :What's the opposite of that? Because that's me! Everything turns to shit.
Nick Papastamatis :The...he had the Ico and since then has had no problems with it, hasn't had surgery.
Kellie Burns :Wow and no other referred changes?
Nick Papastamatis :No swelling, no pain. No nothing doesn't play footy anymore. So I suppose he has dialled back what he does, keeping that in mind, but when I like, asking him what his perception of pain is, he looks at pain as so objective like, so objectively, it's almost like it's almost like he doesn't really identify what pain really is. And whereas other people would look at the ACL of I know, fucking definitely I'd look at my ACL as I've had mine operated on and think shit. This is catastrophe.
Jac Simmonds :Alarm bells going off you think about oh shit I can't work, I can't run, I can't do this and then pain levels go up so yeah, it's all about perception.
Nick Papastamatis :What's your experience Kel with your friends your network people around you, who I'm sure you're not an if you know any like if you've got a close knit of friends Yeah, I don't know if you've got any chiros or physios in your close knit. Yep. Right so you're all in other industries. Yeah. So it's I think, what are their perceptions of pain compared to yours and what are the some of the coversations you've had?
Kellie Burns :I think I like to think my pain threshold is quite high. Again, because I've been through all the injuries I have and that sort of stuff. But getting back to mental health, when you've had mental pain and been in dark places, physical pains, nothing. Physical pain shows you're you're alive was mental pain, physical pain will go away in time. Yeah, you can take neurofen if you have to you there's very few very, very little physical pain you can't... that won't ease in time, unless obviously you have cancer or something obviously chronic like that. But mental pain that's harder to dig yourself out of. Yeah. So for me physical pain is not something that scares me. And it's never really concerned... In fact, if I don't come away, and Mitch, my trainer hates it. If I don't go ahead, I don't know. I'm not sure we didn't go hard enough. Yeah. So we don't have to be sore to have gains.
Nick Papastamatis :But of course that's another education process. Yeah, you're probably going through right now.
Kellie Burns :100%. Yeah, pain is not pain does not equate to, to growth necessarily.
Jac Simmonds :Alright. And just like a little anecdote I reckon, I think the best experiences the best results that we get with patients are the ones that have like, that sort of relationship with pain, like a positive, I guess, relationship with physical pain. Yeah, like where I guess they want to figure out the best way to deal with it, rather than just throw in the towel and be like shit.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, I would. I would much I would much prefer a patient who's looking at their pain...that's trying to search for pain, as opposed to one who's trying to avoid pain.
Jac Simmonds :I think the other interesting thing you said was, um, because you've had so many injuries, like you have you've obviously you've built some pain tolerance as well like yeah, I think the the other side of it is the first time someone does their back, like, does a disc in their back like shit it is so painful, like, so obviously the alarm bells are gonna be going off and...
Kellie Burns :Relative to the previous experience.
Jac Simmonds :Exactly, yeah.
Kellie Burns :It's, it's new. It's a new pain. Oh shit what have I done?
Jac Simmonds :Like, I mean, probably the second time, I might be wrong here, but maybe the second time you ruptured your hamstring. Oh, it was a different experience.
Kellie Burns :Oh I laughed.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah.
Kellie Burns :I said to Andrew I think I've done it again?
Jac Simmonds :Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :I wonder, I wonder, well, obviously, there'd be a hell of a lot of fear associated when you do something for the first time as to what have I done here? And it's almost like if if I have, you know, the amount of patients over the years I've treated who come in once or twice a year because their backs out again, you know, that as they as it happens more frequently, which it always does, because they don't actually address the issue properly. They actually they become much more objective about it. Yeah. They actually like, yeah, look, it's happened again.
Kellie Burns :Because I've been to the other side once before. Yeah. And I know it's not forever. So that's where knowledge is key. And as practitioners, I think there is a tendency, not not with this practice, but to sort of almost withhold a little bit information. So you have to keep coming back.
Nick Papastamatis :Have you had any experience like that?
Kellie Burns :Hundred percent.
Nick Papastamatis :Really? Tell us a little bit about that. Without obviously naming names obviously.
Kellie Burns :You know, I'm a questioner but but why, so why would that have happened? So how come I'm feeling this? Well, let's just let this week, let's just do this, let's just do these exercises. And we'll go into little more detail about what's happening next time. So what I want to know now I want to see the big picture in terms of what I'm experiencing and what my end goal is. And I don't know whether it's because I think I'm not I don't have the intellect to take in what they want to tell me. I don't know what it is, but I want to know the big picture. Now I think all do, you want to know what the end game is? Yeah. And also, the other good thing about this practice is, so you're not booking me three months ahead in terms of, well, this is going to take three months, you know? Because a few times I've said to you, what do you want to see me again? And you go no see how you go.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, the I, I feel like there are two types of practitioners, ah I beg your pardon, two types of patients and it is on a spectrum. It's a, you're either a pain focused patient, and the pain focused patients are the ones that are literally lying down before you've even said hello. They're shirt off straight down. So you know what they want. Yeah. And just want a little bit of passive, you know, yeah, hit the sore spot, or at least get into yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's what the patient wants. And then there are other patients who, are more like yourself who are outcomes focused. Yes, I don't give a fuck what treatment you do. Fix it. And what's the path? Keep me in the loop, please. I want to know what's going on. And until...
Kellie Burns :I want buy in.
Nick Papastamatis :Yell yeah but if you try your approach with someone who's pain focused results are terrible.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, because you're not giving them what they want...
Kellie Burns :Short term relief.
Jac Simmonds :... and there's a million physios out there who will just rub the sore spot for half an hour, you know what I mean.
Nick Papastamatis :It comes down to the physio/chiro to identify what type of patient and what type of practitioner they are first, are they focusing on, because I'm a very outcomes focused practitioner so is Jac. Like, I don't fucking want to treat your tight traps. I don't.
Kellie Burns :Go and get a massage.
Nick Papastamatis :Go and get a massage. Yeah, like there you can pick anyone to rub the sore spot. Yeah, you came here, you know, for me, I'm like, and not that I'm above it on different, I deal with different people. Yes. And so I prefer dealing with patients like yourself Kel who want to actually figure out what is going on. But um...
Kellie Burns :And never once have you said to me, because runnings always been the dream, Yep, never once did you say to at any point Kel this is a really dumb fucking idea, give it up. You didn't say we're gonna do this we'll do that it's only through my own realization now that I've kind of I'm never really gonna be a runner I'm gonna shuffle on here and now and that's okay but I whereas in the past I have had practitioners say running, you can't, you cannot run, you shouldn't run. You're just not built for it.
Jac Simmonds :There's never, there's never absolute with that stuff like I reckon like probably more than physios and chiros, orthopedic surgeons are super guilty of it.
Nick Papastamatis :Oh ther think they've got a crystal fucking ball in their hand.
Jac Simmonds :I've heard some people after discectomy like he can't pick anything up again over 10 kilos like...
Nick Papastamatis :Absolute garbage.
Jac Simmonds :How the fuck you going to live if you can't pick up anything.
Kellie Burns :I was never told that fortunately.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, just stuff like that.
Nick Papastamatis :We've heard...
Kellie Burns :God...God complex thing. Yeah. So getting back to Andrew when he had a he had a brain tumor and seizure and all sorts of stuff. Neurologist first said to him, you will never exercise at a high level ever again.
Nick Papastamatis :Four weeks later. Iron Man.
Jac Simmonds :That's crazy.
Kellie Burns :And I think...
Nick Papastamatis :I'd love to get Andrew on the podcast and actually talk about that.
Kellie Burns :You try and get a word in with him.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, that's all right. Yeah. I think he'll be competing with me.
Kellie Burns :You won't get a word in with him. I think the newer generation of health practitioners, which obviously you guys are, it's different. These older surgeons that you know, generally middle aged men think they know everything. They are absolute, they talk in absolute.
Jac Simmonds :And there's dinosaur physios and chiros who are like it as well. Just like..
Nick Papastamatis :They get stuck in their in their ways. Yeah, and unfortunately, they're just not upskilling.
Kellie Burns :Yeah, they're they're changing all the time. Right?
Nick Papastamatis :Like it is changing. I even I feel I feel like I'm behind. Yeah, and and you know, there are some people that would be shocked if I said that. I do feel like I'm behind. Like, if you don't you do your way too confident. Yeah, yeah, there's too much stuff coming out all the time. You know, there are some fantastic practitioners out there. Yep. And, you know, there's there's this elitist mentality inside healthcare because, you know, we have so many success stories. But unfortunately, yeah, like we're all human right? We make mistakes all the time.
Kellie Burns :Every patient is different. So what worked... either walk in with the condition and someone else could walk in with the exact same condition, but my outcomes might be different? Yeah. Well, there's actually make it really hard for you guys.
Nick Papastamatis :There's actually some research about that. And it really comes down to how...what the communication is like, and whether, yeah, so if you if you came in with the exact same condition, it came down to what I said, and gave you the exact same treatment, actually came down to what we spoke about, which makes the difference.
Kellie Burns :Yeah, interesting. So it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. And the other thing I think about you guys all walk out here with one maybe two exercises, whereas other practices, you might have three sheets of stuff. I'm never gonna do that.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah with stick figure drawings.
Kellie Burns :Yes. But I'm never gonna do that. I'm not gonna stick to that. Send me off with a couple of clams and yeah, standard.
Nick Papastamatis :That'll do ya.
Kellie Burns :That's enough.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, it's realistic. Yeah, exactly.
Kellie Burns :It is realistic. Otherwise you feel like you failed? Oh I didn't do my half hour rehab today. It's not gonna happen.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. Now we're broaching on the 50 odd minute mark. Wow, that one quick. Yeah. And I suppose maybe we can throw one more question each I reckon. Okay, I'll start with mine. What is your message to patients? And what is your message to practitioners?
Kellie Burns :Okay. Um, I think you have to take ownership as a patient. You need to take some ownership of your own health and your own body. Yes, you're paying for a level of professional expertise that you don't have yourself. But you do have to ask questions. You do have to understand And you're so what's going on within your own body and the practitioner is a facilitator of your own health and your own, you know, recovery, but you have to take some hundred percent ownership of it. Because I know people friends that have gone to chiros and physios two or three times and it didn't work. It doesn't work like that. It's like going to a personal trainer three times and wanting to lose 20 kilos. Yeah, like it has to be an ongoing thing. To practitioners yet... get off the high horse I guess be relatable. Don't make it you know everything because you because clearly you don't the human body's fascinating and it's not an exact science and those sorts of things just be a companion in the journey, rather than someone telling people that you know it all because you don't.
Nick Papastamatis :Hmm. Thanks.
Jac Simmonds :I mean, I guess my question would be you've obviously been through a lot of physical pain. Yeah. And obviously you spoke about your mental pain as well. How do you think over all this journey your perspective on change... on pain has changed? I know we brushed it a little bit..
Kellie Burns :Yeah know, I think my perspective on pain is that, you know, as Buddha says, that's what life is, is suffering. It's how...it's your perspective on it though, because suffering such a negative word, but it all, it also serves a purpose, if you choose to find out and ending for purposes, but physical physical pain is often a means to getting stronger, or better, or whatever, you know, mental pain is the same into pain is a signal that something else in your life isn't right. And there are ways of getting through it. So it's not something to run away from. It's actually opportunity. You've just got to work out what that opportunity represents and what you can turn it into.
Nick Papastamatis :That's brilliant. So Kel to wrap it up, you've been awesome.
Kellie Burns :Thank you.
Nick Papastamatis :Love your story. Yeah. And I suppose for people listening. You mentioned Sean your brother. Yeah. And I know that there's a foundation.
Kellie Burns :There is.
Nick Papastamatis :Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Kellie Burns :So yeah. I touched on Sean was a member of the tactical response team in the police force before he left and we raise money each year now for some scholarships in his name through New South Wales Police legacy. Those scholarships go out to the children of deceased police officers to persue a sporting activity. Because sport was his thing. You know, he while he was still in the force, he retrained as a strength and conditioning trainer as I mentioned, and ended up being high performance manager at the Eels before he passed away. So sport was an all that it represented, you know, the the benefits of it, physical, mental, all that sort of thing. Were really important to him. So to enable the younger person to pursue that journey, that's what the scholarships are for. So raise money each year for that.
Nick Papastamatis :That's amazing.
Jac Simmonds :Yeah, that's great.
Kellie Burns :It's a great legacy.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah, I think it's called Legacy.
Kellie Burns :It is NSW Police Legacy. Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :Yeah. No, that's awesome. If anyone's looking for a house, yeah.
Kellie Burns :Belle Property Castle Hill. Yeah.
Nick Papastamatis :So yeah, any closing remarks?
Jac Simmonds :No, it was it was great hearing your story Kellie. Oh, yeah. We really appreciate you coming on and it's been really good. Yeah.
Kellie Burns :Thank you guys for having me.
Nick Papastamatis :Thanks Kel.
Jac Simmonds :Thank you